Lead

Nov 23 08 2:08 AM

Tags : :

Ok Guys and Gals,

Here is a new metamorphosis of webcams.

And first it began as porn. Then it morphs into a dating site. Next, a new frontier, "cooking with a chat hostess". And I thought it was all about the porn?

Well every so often on a porn site, a few independent models have begun to perform various normal activities. Such as cooking live, or playing with their pets, to taking a bath or shower naked,oops thats kinda porn isnt it? Oh I am confused what is considered porn today.

I presume next we can expect, naked vacuuming, or getting my nails manicured, or getting a haircut.

Is this the next evolution in being a web hostess?

Am I bored enough to watch a cam girl cook on a porn site? Or is this a new and creative and innovative method of gaining more admirers. Hooking your potential client,by actually being normal? Wow now this is something new, breaking new ground. Will they broadcast a real marriage?

By seeming to be the "girl next door". are they making their appeal to a wider audience. Does it serve a bigger purpose?

And honestly, is it fair to all the models that can not work independently. The pressures to provide a new twist, by being creative are seemingly breaking down the personal barriers.Oh gonzo porn is losing its appeal. Come to think about it, I know for a fact that this woman lives in the USA, originally from romania. So am I to believe that this is a part time job(cam hostess). That performing a normal daily activity,without getting a show there while cooking live,means she is not desperate for the money?

Is there an underlying issue that she is missing, meaning she seeks the attention. But then I thought women did this for the money, oops I am wrong. What was I thinking?

Ok what's next? How about a show about nothing!!!! I am sure there is a need and a niche for that as well. Uncle, maybe we can gather a few members here, do a simultaneous webcam show together. We can set it up as a talk show, and invite guests and models occasionally, what do you think? It would market this forum more effectively.

Opportunist or clever advertising?

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

Quote    Reply   

#1 [url]

Nov 23 08 5:23 AM

What's next? I just happened across the movie Untraceable tonight. I don't think anything like this will be in our futures but the premise certainly seemed to be plausible. It's really up to us.

The movie deals with the broadcast and archiving of suicides and a sick and hurting young mans decision to stream several serial killings. He lets the number of website hits determine how quickly his victims will die.

Worth watching as 'gruesome entertainment' to help us consider better uses of our technologies. The theme of the movie touched on many things that we have been discussing here recently.

Be kind, for [nearly] everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. -- Philo
Curiosity Didn't Kill This Cat. -- Studs Terkel
Simply paying attention allows us to build an emotional connection. Lacking attention, empathy hasn't a chance. --Daniel Goleman

Quote    Reply   

#2 [url]

Nov 23 08 9:07 PM

So Indx, are we to believe that if I am standing in front of a bakery on main street. I watch a baker bake his bread or cakes for example, that I should ask him to try it on the internet. So I can pay him for his labors and watch eventually.

In the end, no, she did not rip anyone off, but then think again. She manipulated some to go private using a different method, because of her innovative approach.

Am I and you to believe, that because a woman that works as a cam model, and can cook, is something that I need to pay to see?

No your missing my point, it is still ending up as porn. and a business to make money.

I have many talents too, should I use them to get a show or a private? Would you?

She made it out of her country, Ask her why she left? To make a better life, I am certain. Yet she enjoys her cam job. And could they not have employed the same methods in their country of origin? Or is that against the law there?
Ask her why she is still a cam model? I know the answer. Because she likes the work. I have no problem with it. But then why come to the USA? I suppose that is sending a message. You think about what kind of message it sends.

hmmmm.... land of opportunity here or just their idea of making money at what she has become good at.

So you got it thrown in your face when you were in the lounge. Amazing what people will watch and pay for isn't it. Simply said because I can do it, and there are people that will pay for it.

Ok, let's stretch the boundaries, hey if I can make money off of anything why not. Once again there is a sucker born every minute. There are approximately, 2 billion potential customers on this planet, wow, imagine the possibilities.

Nudity is fine, freedom of expression is fine also. They were free for so many centuries, yet people need to pay for it. Just another view.

Wait a minute, I had an epiphony, Some go to these sites to empty their scrotums, so I can gladly empty your wallets to assist you.

Oh this has been touched on in many other threads. And by members and models alike.

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

Quote    Reply   

#3 [url]

Nov 24 08 5:19 AM

A new trend, opportunity knocks indeed. Obscenity: "I know it when I see it!"

Bittersweet, I posted the reference here to either help clear or, perhaps, explain your confusion about what actually is pornographic today. I hope it helps. I've read it about three times and I have to admit, I'm also more than a little confused. To me, if it's obscene then it's pornographic. If it's genuine and natural sexual expression coupled with at least a degree of intimacy and not obscene then, for me, it's erotica. For printed material or still images the degree of intimacy I spoke of comes from my recognition of the artistic expression by both the artist and model. Enough on that. Bittersweet, you know it when you see it! cool.gif

QUOTE (A History of the Definition of Obscenity)
Conclusion

What persons in the sex industry typically fail to understand is how conservative the legal standards for pornography are and how vulnerable to prosecution they truly are due to these vagaries. One reading of the personal obscenity tests of the liberal justices of the past makes that clear.


Well, at least I usually know it when I see it. I thought the cooking show and interactions in public chat were quite refreshing. If your baker friend where as cute and charming then it might be very good indeed to suggest that she set up a web cam and chat while she's baking. Might help bring in holiday orders over the Internet and new customers into her store.

Seriously, hosts who provide genuine and honest interactions with their clients will find clients who enjoy being with them ... they won't have to be manipulated. If the client is also maintains genuine and honest interactions then so much the better. It's okay to pay for reasonable and proper services when the contract is clear from the beginning.

It's also okay to provide services like our cooking friend did at no charge in free chat ... so even those who can't afford to buy her 'cookies' right now can at least enjoy her company and chat. She was freely sharing her time and a part of her life. What's wrong with that? She's also got 'cookies' for sale ... not lemonade!

Just my opinion.

QUOTE (Bittersweet)
I have many talents too, should I use them to get a show or a private? Would you?

Well, it would have to be your choice to be fair, Bittersweet.

I was a contractor in the computer industry during the 1980's. I was good at what I did and I didn't mind grossing 'almost' a dollar a minute before taxes and expenses. Fortunately, I was also an independent and I certainly used my talents to get private contracts.

Even today, people sign up as 'experts' at places like ImLive to provide advice and services for others who are willing to 'use' them. Things like Tarot Readings, Computer Help, and Programming Assistance. An yes, I became a host there recently so that I could have access to their 'host agreement'. ( I do not offer any sexual services or sexual advice ... not my area of expertise )

But, I haven't been online yet because they claim to 'own' all of my images and all material that I disseminate there ... so it's not such a sweet deal. I'm not likely to earn any money there ... but it might be a hoot! We'll see.

Now, would you? What part of your life and talents would you like to share with the world? What services would you be willing to offer for hire in order to make your life and, maybe the lives of others, a little better? Opportunity knocks!

Be kind, for [nearly] everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. -- Philo
Curiosity Didn't Kill This Cat. -- Studs Terkel
Simply paying attention allows us to build an emotional connection. Lacking attention, empathy hasn't a chance. --Daniel Goleman

Quote    Reply   

#4 [url]

Nov 24 08 12:53 PM

Good point.

But then you nor I use intimacy nor the disguise of intimacy if we did a baking or talent show, to make a buck.

My point is not that it is pornography,and what is considered pornography. Pornography could be considered anything that sexually excites a person. So if a person piercing their genitalia gets another person aroused that could be pornography too.If watching someone be murdered excited someone would that be pornography too?

But if cooking aroused me which it does a little is that pornography? No, because I am not getting sexually aroused. But for some it may.

Point is, in the end, it is how people achieve their goal. Now some may feign friendship and love to get their desired result. Some won't.

The key to this entire industry of camming is to somehow get the person or persons interested so in the final result they will spend their money to make themselves happy. Some use friendship, some use love, some use fraud, some use an illness,and now some use cooking, to get some kind of emotional reaction or response from the potential client. To set the intimate sense of connecting. So in the end they can get paid or get aroused.

I have no problem with someone getting naked and being an exhibitionist. Nor having someone pay to watch it. But when manipualtion and other devious acts are intertwined into it to achieve the same result, is that fine as well?

Most women on these sites are not looking for love or friendships. If they are then the entire world is their friend and lover. I believe there are other human and psychological issues and traits involved. And for some, those issues are hidden and are emotional.And for some it is an addiction as well.

To be continued........

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

Quote    Reply   

#5 [url]

Nov 24 08 2:11 PM

Well said Bittersweet.
As defined by Websters Dictionary. This may cover all that has been discussed in the forum. But then again each person will put their own spin on it to justify their own needs.



Main Entry:
por·nog·ra·phy Listen to the pronunciation of pornography
Pronunciation:
\-fē\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Greek pornographos, adjective, writing about prostitutes, from pornē prostitute + graphein to write; akin to Greek pernanai to sell, poros journey — more at fare, carve


1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction


They should be revising it to include the internet and to #3 the poronogrphy of fraud and exploitation of the human weakness.

Quote    Reply   

#6 [url]

Nov 25 08 3:04 AM

Tben, your last sentence I would categorize as being obscene. It is obscene to do such an act. In fact some might consider it inhumane or a crime.

Justification for one's self ideals can become a twisted delusion of reality.

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

Quote    Reply   

#7 [url]

Dec 12 08 10:10 PM

I would agree Bittersweet. Perhaps others can help us? Where does this twisted sense of reality come from?
It's always been here, available to all those who know that others weaknesses can be their profitabilty. It comes in all forms, from all countries, always has, always will. In the new age of the internet, poorer countries that had to rely on their cunning and wits to make ends meet have had the world opened up to them.
They can practice the age old scams on the unsuspecting, those who believe in the common good of mankind, those who think the internet and all it offers is amazing.
Most should just take a good look at their own countries to see the same is going on. It's not a local problem but happening world wide.
Only the internet opens doors to people, innocent people that have an awe and belief in this good world and baaaam? Reality it's not so pretty.
So my question to UL? UL you provide a service to the hosts who may be capped and enlighten your members as to what goes on. A thoughtful purposeful venture. I commend you and thank you for your education and enlightenment.
But in reading this forum, you do seem biased toward the hosts, should you also provide a members only forum? Where members, guests can provide insight and forewarn others to members to the names and tactics employed by the unscrupulous hosts that will take advantage of the naive, trusting members.
Just some thoughts

Quote    Reply   

#8 [url]

Dec 13 08 12:24 AM

Tben, I do believe someone did mention when they first joined this forum regarding starting a parallel website to educate members or naive rookies to this world. But I believe, that person died a horrible death that brought up that subject a long time ago.

With the advent of the fall of dictatorships and the new openness that many eastern European bloc countries now have access to,via the internet,video,and perhaps globalization of tv and its access,it is like a virtual candy store to some.

I agree it is up to each person to learn and decipher what the reality of things are to them. Some get what they deserve and some do not deserve what they get, and when I say that, I am speaking looking at both sides involved.


The repression and the lust for things that some never had before is a huge incentive to do things that others might consider, immoral, unjust, and practically illegal in other countries. Now not all people are corrupt or bad, but it just takes a few instances and experiences for the good, the bad and the ugly to make their appearances in this industry as well as any place, any job, or any country.

Sifting through it all, in my judgement, lessons learned, and lessons taught. People can adhere to the basic rules of what is the perceived norm, and people can go their own way too. For some they need to learn it by real experience and others will take heed and listen before leaping. Its simply human nature.

Can we protect everyone? Can we force anyone to listen to others that have been there and done that? It is a gamble, sometimes it pays off and sometimes we lose.
That is the true reality of it all. A deaf ear can result in being blind as a bat and keep their tongues tied.

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

Quote    Reply   

#9 [url]

Dec 13 08 12:33 AM

Tben to answer your query,. I would suggest that you take a look at most of the posts in Sexual Tourism - beginning with the Models Manuals - especially this one from two years ago that was written by the cynical web-master of Flirt4Free which we described as a "must-read for members."
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=40
Or this model's Manual from a Czech studio
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=421

And then look at the old debates about the real nature of live video chat where we asked whether it was gonzo reality porno or virtual prostitution?
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=262

I think that you will see that we have done our best to disenchant male members about what was the true nature of the illusion that they were not only buying, but in a real sense helping to produce. By this I mean that the members not only "direct" the shows they buy, but also participate in the training process that "produces" the models that they see too - in a process of social conditioning that rather quickly transforms an "ordinary" woman student into a professional 'cam-ho.." As you can see being done here in the post below, the members are the real teachers in this "school for scandal":
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=414

Of course, once that training is finished - and "this job has squeezed all the humanity out of us" as one Bucharest model put it - the professional studio model in turn becomes a propaganda agent for the same industry that exploits her emotional and sexual labor. And every shift, has her doing her part to legitimate the very idea of sexual commerce, and to persuade and reassure her clients that she's cool with the idea that they can buy her pussy for cold hard cash. This is a core notion that we have developed here - "porn is propaganda." But of what kind? What kind of message gets sold every time a client treats himself to a sex show and then comes in his own hand?

Well Tben, if you look at this same section you will also find pieces by Robert Jensen that deal with how contemporary porn has moved more and more toward what is called "extreme content," the gonzo sub-genre of porn that eroticizes sexual cruelty - something that in turn influences the kinds of web-cam shows members ask for and which models must then perform for them on-line.
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=986
and Martin Amis
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=802

So overall I don't think that it's fair to say that this forum is "biased" in favor of the cam models that it was originally set up to help to serve and inform. Or that we reinforce the toxic messages of the porn industry. The main voice that one hears on this forum is that of angry and wounded male members... And frankly, some of the models who visit us are repelled by what they see as our deep suspicion regarding both their ethics and their integrity as human beings.
Some models think of themselves as pro-sex advocates in a sick, anti-sex culture. Others think of themselves as psychiatric social workers ministering to the lonely and heart-sick, and simply as entertainers doing a mix of music and comic patter along with a little soft-core burlesque. We don't hear that when they telling us their stories and tend not to take it seriously. Instead, all too often, we dismis them liars and cheats who sell "counterfiet emotions."

In general, Tben, this forum sounds a steady drum-beat of criticism of the on-line sex industry that one can hardly construe as a chorus of praise. I don't think that we are wrong in much of what we say, but all this criticism does not make this forum a particularly "congenial environment" for most of our model members - which why so many of them take one look, and then leave rather quickly never to come back..
Should I say "Bravo, Guys ??"
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

Quote    Reply   

#10 [url]

Dec 13 08 1:55 AM

Uncle, So what should any of us do or say?

Would you rather it be swept under the rug per say, if you don't see it , then it is not a problem or is a problem?Or better yet a phenomenon or maybe just a job.

Yet the reality is like previously written in an older post or thread, is that it is a fantasy that exists in reality.

And why do you believe they(models) run away?

Is it because they do not wish to read people bashing their work or them?

Or is there some underlying truth to it,so running away from it will make it good and right,or better?Or is it there nothing wrong with any of it?

Communication is the key and whether it is negative criticism or positive support, without discussion nothing will ever change or be fully understood on both sides.

Do you think models all think highly of visitors to their work or on the other hand do all members view models as whores and prostitutes?

I do not agree with that, each person is an individual with their own thoughts and ideals. That will never change, but running away does not solve anything either.

Or shall I just leave and say fuck it altogether too?

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

Quote    Reply   

#11 [url]

Dec 13 08 10:43 AM

QUOTE

The main voice that one hears on this forum is that of angry and wounded male members... And frankly, many models who visit us are repelled by what they see as our deep suspicion concerning both their ethics and their integrity as human beings.

I think the best that we can do is accentuate the positive when possible. I'm one of those human beings who happens to believe that 'reality' can be just as beautiful and wondrous in moments ... as it can be ugly and unfair at others. I'm learning to see both sides more clearly and I'm really trying not to objectify models or members ... although it's not easy in our virtual environment where we really don't know each other.

What can we do to help make models more comfortable here? We need to hear their thoughts, ideas, and opinions far more often.

Be kind, for [nearly] everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. -- Philo
Curiosity Didn't Kill This Cat. -- Studs Terkel
Simply paying attention allows us to build an emotional connection. Lacking attention, empathy hasn't a chance. --Daniel Goleman

Quote    Reply   
avatar

Maniac

Regular Newbie

Posts: 10

#12 [url]

Aug 5 12 6:21 AM

I have never viewed camming as porn, the interaction and communication involved makes it different. It begins for most users as an exploration beyond porn, usually as a way back to reality. Toms typology (type 1) about model as social worker is quite accurate for many users.
A part of this will involve something more real/ honest in the exchanges. As a user I have spent time sharing food, watching music or painting, sharing personal experiences, comforting tears, and even letting a model friend sleep/ rest in pvt. The longer you are with someone, the easier it is to see more of the woman.
I will agree that there is always a risk of exploiting or confusing appreciating the woman/ girl that you like with wanting some form of power over her. Much of the conflict between model and user results from this.
The smartest and best models realise the importance of communication to success, and use the best of themselves as part of creating a good room. These women are easy to admire and respect, I would wish this for every model and naively I know, I hope this is the larger part of camming's future.

Quote    Reply   

#13 [url]

Aug 5 12 5:08 PM

QUOTE
I have never viewed camming as porn, the interaction and communication involved makes it different. It begins for most users as an exploration beyond porn, usually as a way back to reality.


Beyond porn? With all due respect, I dare you to ask any person that arrives on any of these camsites to say they were not look for nudity, stimulation or pornography.

Exploration beyond porn, hmmm.... Well camming as many a cam model has written on many other forums, to be successful they not only have to provide sensual erotica, sexual teasing, pornographic entertainment, but "connect" with their clients.

Give the customer what they are seeking. From sex to porn, from cooking to car shows, from "friendship" to real or feigned love", the last two quotes are what keeps people returning mostly.

Are you saying that we all need to pay to speak, interact and friend a woman? If so, twitter and facebook are not as they were designed to be used as then, alas in fact cam models use all the social media sites to connect to their clients to return and spend more money on them. Fact.

So you want a social porn site? Hmmm... where can we all find that these days? Aha I know where. It happens every second of every day, on all these sites. I am waiting for models to come here and tell you otherwise. That they really do not want to become your friend or to fall in love or get married, or meet and fuck people. For the pro's the only thing that they care about is how to earn more money off of you and I. But then again, people do hook up and it happens too. I watch individuals write and pay for the favoritism, the attention and the desire to meet with others for whatever reasons. And women will provide that service as well for money or fun.


QUOTE
The smartest and best models realise the importance of communication to success, and use the best of themselves as part of creating a good room. These women are easy to admire and respect, I would wish this for every model and naively I know, I hope this is the larger part of camming's future.


This part is intriguing to me, I can surmise the reason and purpose of this statement from your perspective. Do you recognize or realize it, though?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   

#14 [url]

Aug 5 12 6:06 PM

Well I for sure can assure you that the best results are made by models not performing hard shows !
More yet, the most minutes (result) are made chatting about all but erotic or porno topics !

To be in order with Ukrainian law we had to "re-educate" models...
Our maximum "show" stays precisely withi9n the borders of an "erotic show" and where we were fearing for a fall-off in sales, we saw exactly the opposite happening...

Our Ukrainian models do 30% better than others...

What about that ?
Isn't that interesting ?

I admit there was an adapting period but in few months the statistics show a clear tendency !

There is a big niche for just chatting till max erotic chit-chat....

Wanted to share this...

Quote    Reply   

#15 [url]

Aug 5 12 6:11 PM

Alas, I actually agree with you on this.

But do you think those paying members are looking for more than just a sex show?

In so much as you admit now you changed your formula to having clients connect more mentally, I do believe you are playing to a whole other separate weakness of these clients or their lack or void in their lives they need filled.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   

#16 [url]

Aug 6 12 1:30 AM

Here is a quote from a successful independent SW model stating the very same thing- most of her income comes from non erotic, non sexual shows.

QUOTE
Sometimes gentlemen DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WANT. Or... They come in wanting one thing, but then, depending on your interpersonal connection, they end up being perfectly happy to pay you for something quite different.

Or... They feel ashamed, thinking that what they ARE SUPPOSED TO WANT is to watch you get naked, play with your bits, and leave. They feel embarrassed to admit that they could use some regular old conversation with a pretty lady who will compliment them, make them feel good, and won't nag them like their wife does.

Let me tell you something, at the risk of revealing my entire "game". 95% of my income comes from gentlemen who, for one reason or another, just need to relax and enjoy the company of a pretty woman. And they can afford to pay for it. When I am on cam with them, I just kick back and do my regular thing. We talk about our lives. I put my feet up on my desk and drink a beer while I talk to them. We start discussing microbreweries, and the merits of Belgian beer over German. Sometimes, I even show them how my windowsill herb garden is doing. :-)

If some other guy popped into my chat room and saw that, he'd be like "what the fuck?!? Is this bitch on CRACK?? She is charging blah-blah per minute to show some fucking PLANTS? This is the worst show ever, and she is a rip-off queen!!!" lol!

The customer in my paid chat doesn't think so. To him, this kind of authentic interaction is worth every penny. :-)

And, BONUS: I have a fabulous time too!

Ps: Wealthy lonely men who just need a girl to talk to and laugh with will NEVER answer the "what are you in the mood for?" question with "I'm a rich, lonely guy, and I just want to chat." ;-)

Quality is subjective.

Quote    Reply   
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help