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Jul 3 09 4:25 PM

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Why do they think that video-chat is prostitution?

This thread is taken from the topic on Adult Video Chat forum, Bucharest, Romania, 2005.

The members of this forum appear to be either cam-models or Studio Owners or Admins - so this is a debate between "industry insiders" in Bucharest that includes telling comments by some of the biggest "Fish" in the Romanian Live-Chat Studio scene.

Here's the link to the topic in the original Romanian version:
http://www.adultvideochat.ro/forum_ro/de-c...67-40.html#6388

Their internal debate on AVC.ro echoes in an uncanny way some of the debates between models and members that happened here in the winter of 2006-2007. Take a look at our thread "What is Video Chat? Prostitution? Porn? or What?" in Sexual Tourism: Real and Virtual" and make your own comparisons.
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...t=25&#entry9064

Then take a look at the strong objections by our Ukrainian model members to any association between doing "video-chat" and doing virtual prostitution. Their refusal to consider any connection is markedly different from what we are hearing here from some of the Romanian models - although Romanians can and do voice strong dissents from this as well on the grounds that "live chat shows" involve mere "masturbation" whereas prostitution means "actually fucking men for money."
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=256

What's interesting is to see that both the models and studio owners are much more offended by immoral manipulation of some member's feelings in order to "beg or fool" them out their money. I think that this is what some of our model contacts meant when they said that they had come to know the "real dirt in this business..." and they didn't mean the sexual aspect. This kind of emotional "scam or con" by models is singled out for special condemnation in terms that resemble what we can hear on this thread about Romanians on the Western web-forum "Internet Cam Girls." Look here:
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1027

Obviously when the "outsiders" and the "insiders" agree on so much, then we have a kind of rough consensus emerging about the nature of this work that lies "at the margins of morality," and its potential risks and harms for both clients and performers. Now, that's something worth exploring further. Look below at this quote from one of the owners of a big studio in Bucharest.

QUOTE (andradavalent @ July 03, 2009 04:25 pm)
Why do they think that video-chat is prostitution?
MARKUS
User Activ  Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:57 pm 

I am convinced that many will not agree with me but itís just an opinion and is not necessarily right. I wait for others to contradict me.

I do not know why they confuse video chat with prostitution, but one thing is sure: I love what I do but also I am not proud of what I do.

Letís not be hypocrites and blame the system...we must accept this business is at the margins of morality.

How many of you if they had a daughter that wanted to work in video chat would agree, and not only agree but to be proud of her!!!

We can blame the mentality that it creates confusion between the video-chat and prostitution but we cannot say that if we lived in a western country and we did this job, that we would be proud.


And again many thanks to Andradavent for finding this thread and translating it.
"Hats Off" Andradavent, our Model Moderatrice extraordinaire.
UL




angellique-Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:30 am


Why do some ppl have such a bad impression about chat-hosts and video chat? I noticed all over in discussions, etc what they think about this industry. For many of them, itís equal to prostitution but thereís a big, a very big difference.
In fact, whoís more the prostitute? A secretary who lets her boss touch her for a $200 salary or a chat host? I think first example is the good one.


Andreea 692003-
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:35 pm -I will tell you why. Because their mentality is still communist. They are used to working for a 3500 RON salary
And if somebody offers them a chance to work in video chat they put their mentality in first place.
They prefer to have a "normal" job than being a "prostitute". And the bad part is that they donít understand it even if you explain it to them.



Infinity-Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject: RE
User Activ
Hereís a random scenario: A Romanian guy goes onto LivJasmin.com, and chooses a model that seems to be the most attractive. The girl, not too dressed, stands in an appealing pose, and refuses from the start to talk with our man because he is Romanian and she's there as a permanent lure to attract foreign men into private sessions. Our man is ignored, the girl wants to make money with her body so what's his conclusion: Sheís a prostitute!
Moral: When the fox does not get the grapes he says the grapes are sour.

MARKUS
User Activ Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:57 pm

I am convinced that many will not agree with me but itís just an opinion and is not necessarily right. I wait for others to contradict me.

I do not know why they confuse video chat with prostitution, but one thing is sure: I love what I do but also I am not proud of what I do.

Letís not be hypocrites and blame the system...we must accept this business is at the margins of morality.

How many of you if they had a daughter that wanted to work in video chat would agree, and not only agree but to be proud of her!!!

We can blame the mentality that it creates confusion between the video-chat and prostitution but we cannot say that if we lived in a western country and we did this job, that we would be proud

videochat_father-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:37 am
User Activ

What percentage of models who have worked more than a year, have met with members who knew they were doing video chat? 10%? 20%? 50%?
What percentage got into bed with them?
What percentage of those who got in bed with them did it for
a) money
b) pleasure
c) love
How many of those who did it for money, would admit it? I would say...NONE

MARKUS -Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:40 am -answers to videochat_father

About this...hmmm...no comment

videochat_father-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:05 am
Begging on the Internet or "to con" a member
A high percentage of "beggars" in my opinion are independent models (boys and girls). All models wants to get to work from home as independents.

Somebody asked me few days ago:
"what should I do, man? I received 5 thousand euros to go with him. Can he sue me or stuff like that if I donít go?

I replied: Does he know your name?

He answered: Of course, he sent me money via Western Union and..."

So I said: Go have some fun or hide:))

btw, that model was a boy
I want to develop this subject, begging and fooling (conning) members.

User Avansat Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:21 am
Whores are mostly sex-sellers from the mall but no one puts equal sign between them and prostitutes ...

Is it true that the words above are a disgrace ... I have never hesitated to fire any model who tried to begging for money or to fool (to con) a member.

adid22-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:24 pm
User Activ

There are members who are looking for trouble. In the past few days I had a member come who insisted about 2 hours to have me give my phone number. I tried to get him to relax and go easy; to tell him we don`t know each other so itís not appropriate for us to exchange telephone numbers. Last excuse I gave was that I can`t give him my number because site will close my account and I have a clause in contract with a fine of 10000 euros. His answer: "Iíll pay that for u, so you will no longer have to work there". So, I logged off from the site because I just couldn`t do it. In my opinion, these people want to be conned. There are also members who understand the barrier between model and client but lot of them think they can save poor models who are working in inhumane conditions. A refusal is an offense for them and the second time, they won`t ever come back. What do you think?

DoarEu-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:01 pm
User Avansat

Begging on the videochat sites?
I have a model who speaks with a regular on imlive. I allowed it only after she promised not to beg and will not take him away from the site onto yahoo for example. The man was from the Netherlands and is already planning holiday in Romania. Really! So the girl even wants to meet him. As far as I know, she has not received any money from him, the man still comes in 2 - 3 times a week and stays in video chat for about an hour planning his holiday. So, We should not be making generalizations.
I understand that there are girls on the opposite side also... if I said No, I would be lying. Romanians are good scenario makers. that`s why we have such a bad reputation in the world.


michelexsex- Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:06 pm Post subject:
User Junior

answers to Adyd-

You should not talk. 2 months ago you told me that you and your girlfriend received 800 euros from a member who liked your friend so you would both go to Netherlands and you did not.

DoarEu-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:23 pm
User Avansat

I confirm what Michele said, the story about the Dutch member is true, Ady worked for me. She used to work for me until one night I did a routine check and I found her not on video chat but on messenger.


adid22-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:33 pm -answers to Michelexsex
And what did you want me to do? To refuse? I took the money but the man still came to talk me. Anyway, we all are here to make money. Do you want me to cry for the poor clients? When a client tells you to do the most bizzare things and wants to watch? They think will find love on a site where they pay to watch? Then, they are stupid. Everyone gets what he deserves. Studio owners have a direct personal interest in seeing that their models not to make money outside of the studio and web-site.
And one more thing: Please no more tears over stupid clients. And yes I accepted money from a client. I needed it to start up as an independent model.

Infinity-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject: To be or not to be?

The oldest profession was prostitution with the man who had a deer+starved woman=sex for needs. And so it all began...
Now place the action of several thousand years in the future: a man who has a credit card and a girl who needs money=virtual sex.

Definition of prostitution: an activity made by a person (usually female) selling her body in order to procure a sum of money for survive.
Chat-host in translation would mean a person who hosts a discussion, but I think that this designation would only apply if they worked in the category "Flowers and Gardens" or "cooking and baking.
In the adult category, certainly "chat- host" is a very loose job-description for the work actually performed.

You guys should know better. Go into a strip-tease club and you see a lot of dancers, some of them professionals, who attended dance classes, and when you leave, you say: "Brother did you see that piece of ass? A "slut" is a super girl dancing at bar. Although the girl may not go to bed with anyone!
You are in a club. A girl is dancing provocatively on the table. Comments in the hall: " Did you see that Bitch dancing on tables? What a super piece of ass".

This is what happens in video-chat. In an earlier post I said something about a costumer who wrote a book about video chat. Well... these days I just got a part of the manuscript. The author was very well documented and thereís some good thinking there.

I will say that for those who don't know us, we models are just some "whores", our agents will be just some "fish"(pimp) and video chat means virtual prostitution. For those who know us really, everything has a different meaning. Whatís important, ultimately is the opinion that each person thinks about
their own self. What do you chose to be?

DoarEu
User Avansat-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:49 pm answers to Adyd

So, regarding the risk of giving your ym adresses and telephone numbers to stangers. In this case, I have my back up. How can you say that the member from Netherlands offered to send you money, when you were the one who asked for it? This is called "begging' and you are part of this category of beggars.


Angellique-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: To be or not to be

[quote="Infinity"] ĖAccording to this definition can we include in prostitution also those girls who appear in Playboy, Hustler, etc?
adid22-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:08 pm
User Activ

It Ďs not called "begging" Itís called a "trick". I applied to that member exactly what u applied to me. I didn`t beg for money, he sent it.

DoarEu-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:20 pm answering to adid

As for you I have only two words: Shut up. Your morality is equal to 0 and I take responsibility for what I say.

Back on topic, Infinity you are right as usual. But I do not agree with the terms you used. There are model that donít use toys, so, thereís nothing sexual that happens.
Another rhetorical question: ďHow many real hookers have cars, money and jewelry? Maybe the luxury ones. How many models have these assets? Almost all.
Also, I consider that the queen virtual "whore' has a super level of intelligence. I know models who can speak 2 or 3 foreign languages.
So let`s finish with this topic. Begging will exist no matter what we say here on this forum. Lies, and immorality will continue too.

vio_smile4u-Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:50 pm
How come video chat being equated with prostitution? A Communist mentality exists indeed, but do not forget that 15 years have passed since communism came down.
As long as chat-host means "masturbation" and prostitution means "real sex" how can you talk about this? Itís hard for me to believe that majority of models have a communist mentality.
Btw, Infinity when you chose to become chat hostess you assumed some risks. Romanian men are coming onto LivJasmine to watch us, he will not become a permanent member because that`s him. Anyway Bucharest is full of Hookers, the cheapest blowjob is 50000 lei.
A chat-host choose to make money by showing her body. Prostitution means to have sex with one or many persons.


MARKUS-Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:09 am answering to SVIDEO

I say thereís a little hypocrisy here. You say you will fire any model if she begs for money. I do not believe it, not as long as 85% of the models are doing it.
About sex sellers from the Mall I have a word: There are smart whores who are fucking with rich guys and take them money, and there are stupid whores who are fuck on street corners.


2ONCAM-Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:42 am

This is an embarrassing discussion. We all have prejudices arising from ignorance. Why is this activity associated with prostitution? Well, itís very simple:
Itís because the general mentality is full of taboos when it comes to sex. All that means sex is taboo. If a star like Nicoleta Luciu is making money by showing her Boobs, because her boobs are not covered 95% of the time, does this mean that she is prostitute?

If a model is having sex with a customer for money, yes, itís prostitution but this is not important in relation with video chat.

If a hooker get her clients at a reception? Does that means that the reception has something to do with prostitution? OR that the organizer of that party is a pimp?
No matter what we say here, these mentalities will persist, each one has to decide how to judge himself. According to his values or othersí values.


Nicky-
User Activ Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:17 am


Video chat is associated with prostitution because: all men dream of having sexual affairs with prostitutes because these women are able to offer eccentric fantasies for money.
Girls from video chat are able to offer eccentric fantasies for money but they are only VIRTUAL. Logically we should call adult video chat-virtual prostitution.
Itís embarrassing for many of us girls, but kind of true.

Lately it doesnít t matter too much to me what are they call me. I do adult video-chat to make money. Period.

What others think and how they call this is less important.

I saw this in a profile: "If a man talks dirty to a woman, its sexual harassment. If a woman talks dirty to a man, its 1.99/min"

I am going back to my beggars. They miss me. lol.


Chan
User Junior-Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:38 pm

Prostitution= to receive money in exchange for a sexual service
"The term prostitution is sometimes used in the more general meaning of having sex in order to achieve a certain goal different from procreation or pleasure. "

This is the definition of prostitution, right?
In conclusion, after all posts from here - prostitution=video-chat=cam-girl

I am a prostitute, without seeing this like a good thing or a bad thing

Itís a job like any other, which I chose on my own, without being forced by someone

So why so much discussion?

Am I better off as a prostitute or a secretary?
Prostitution=to take money for sexual services
It applies equally to a woman from the street, to a secretary and to the one that does adult video chat.
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#1 [url]

Jul 4 09 3:52 AM

Thank you Andra, for your work on this one, and for sharing it with the forum. It offers an illuminating look inside the minds of industry insiders. It's a familiar debate for which similar conversations might be found between peers of any business.

There are many forms of prostitution, and not all of them relate to the selling of one's body. "Prostitution" is found everywhere, and in all business. It all comes down to ethics and money. Working in the porn entertainment industry does not automatically make a person a prostitute. How a person performs their job defines that.

It's good to see the debate taking place.

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

Quote    Reply   

#2 [url]

Jul 4 09 2:07 PM

well, I think in this industry the debate takes a much more literal context.

it is no more prostitution than any number of print or tv ads that cater to the sexual desires of men.

Quote    Reply   

#3 [url]

Jul 5 09 2:39 AM

Ok, here's what I think: videochat is confused with prostitution because, in both cases, we are talking about performing sexual favours for money or, to put it better, tending to the sexual crotchets of men for money. I'm not in the position to say anything about girls who beg their "regulars" for money, or those who are true scam artists, although I have come to know both kinds. I have never (yet?) begged a member for money. I have never asked one for anything. That does not make me a moral person, given I spend half of my day with my legs spread on the internet. I have been offered money but I never accepted anything - that does not make me less of a "cam-whore".

The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it. - H. D. Thoreau

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#4 [url]

Jul 5 09 4:24 AM

MaryAnn, "Cam-whore" is just another word to hang on you and potentially make
you feel bad. Only you know if you are moral person, and even then, you will
have the baggage hung about your neck from years of conditioning.

I will tell you a quick story. So, I have started listen to a young woman from
Romania and her decision to confront religion and declare herself an atheist.
On youtube, there is a "challenge" - I forget the name, blasphemour challenge,
I think? Anyhow, the point is you make a video declaring that you do not believe in
the "Holy Spirit" and upload to this channel. Now, I have pretty much given
up the whole concept of the gray haired bearded guy up in the clouds a long
time ago. But, to actually accept this challenge, I have to get past years and
years of "programming" - I was raised Catholic. So, I actually contemplated
making the video the other night but it actually made me feel physically odd.
Not quite ill. But, an oddness none the less. I suppose I could take the
young Romanian woman's approach and get wasted first (maybe she wasn't -
but she has made some really good stuff when she was :-) ) ZOMGitsCriss,
in case you are interested.

Anyhow, my point is there is a terrific amount of societal programming that we
each carry around with us that is bullshit and in fact does not define us in any
meaningful fashion.

So, you are a cam-whore, and I am a systems programmer. Nice to meet you.
I am good at what I do and do not, for instance, invade people's privacy.
It sounds like you are a good person, too.

And now, I am going to go out on a limb here. Why the desire to differentiate
between prostitution and cam work? Cam work is obviously safer, etc.
We've been discussing this without the benefit, presumably, of any prostitutes
reading what we are writing. Why are we, people that have visited cam rooms,
women/men that work them, and prostitutes necessarily any different, better or
worse, than anyone else? I don't think we are by virtue of the previous
four positions I mentioned. Any differences depend on us as individuals.

Quote    Reply   

#5 [url]

Jul 5 09 6:14 AM

Thank you
It's not mine to say if we're better or worse. All I can say is that I don't feel better. Maybe because I get that physical oddness every time i log in on a site. There may not be a bearded guy up there in the clouds and maybe it's all just programming, but maybe there's something more to this morality thing than just meaningless "programming", as you call it. Maybe that's why I have to pretend I'm someone else when I'm on these sites, so I can sleep at night. You were raised catholic. I spent a year in a convent. There, beat that )

The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it. - H. D. Thoreau

Quote    Reply   

#6 [url]

Jul 5 09 4:28 PM

Wow...uh, 4 years in Catholic school? Not even close, I know :-)
Actually, after listening to what others have gone through in
various Catholic schools, I got off quite easy. And I was never
an alter boy, so I missed that whole possible area for abuse.

As to why you feel odd when on the site and have to change who
you are: is this because you are violating your morals, or because you
must steel yourself against the onslaught of those you are trying
to degrade you? I am assuming you work on a mfc like site where
the women are "textually assaulted" the entire shift.

I am so glad you seem to have understood my post. I was worried
you would take offense.

Quote    Reply   

#7 [url]

Jul 7 09 3:58 PM

Well Mary Ann and Rs3, this conversation among studio insiders (models and owners) from four years ago must be viewed under a whole new light, now that we have learned that at least some of the Cam-Studio Owners have branched out into offering their models as escorts available for "face to face" encounters with clients in real time in their home town of Bucharest... I am afraid that "Cam-whore" is no longer just a metaphor.

When virtual "Cam-models" are re-packaged as "Student Escort Girls" then there is no more confusion, is there? And the distinction between real and virtual sex commerce whether it's sex chat, porn acting or indoor sex work - becomes more and more of a moot point.
UL

Look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...st=0&#entry9177

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

Quote    Reply   

#8 [url]

Jul 7 09 4:38 PM

But is this really surprising? I'm sorry, I just do not find it be. My lack of surprise has nothing to do with the models, but rather the rather large profit potential. I strongly believe that any business will do whatever is possible to make the largest possible profit unless regulations are imposed to control and level the playing field. But, if we continue that line of thought, we could rapidly drift into American politics :-) And in an enterprise that has criminal connections, like caming appears to, regulations and laws be damned anyhow.

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