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Tom78

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Nov 8 06 10:27 PM

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Hello all!
Here is the post, that Uncle already announced!
I post it now in this category, because I want it to be discussed!

What really happens at a LiveCam-Site!
I had my experience on a special Livecam site, but the results can be adapted to all the others. I use in the text a fictitious name for that site: ‘KeepsCam’ or, ‘Keeps’ for short.

Many people (including models) believe that the customers (members) at Keeps mainly want sex. That is WRONG!!!


Why: There are thousands of porn sites across the Internet, where you can become member for lets say 30$ a month and you have access to thousands of pictures and videos. You can get anything you want there. The videos on offer are often of excellent quality with really good camera work. You can find scenes for every (bad) taste and sites for every fetish! Of course including naked women and masturbation! You can download pictures and videos as often as you might want! One example: a subscription that gives the client access to 700 sites with every category you can imagine –and with 10 000 GB videos!!

If you go to Keeps, you have ‘only’ naked woman and masturbation. And you pay $ 360 per hour!!!!!! $ 360 is equal to the rent of a small flat for a month or about 1/6 of an average monthly income –even in my country, which is a leading industrial nation!


If clients are ready to pay so much money, there must be something else they want; something they can't get on those other sites that I mentioned above. The only real difference that I can see –the one thing that they can't get on the other sites- is the chance for interaction with a live model in real time!


DEFINITION OF ‘SHAME’
In the following you will find the expression ‘shame’ rather often. I’m aware that this will cause a lot of discussion. Main reason might be the fact that ‘shame’ in everyday usage is restricted to moral categories. This is NOT what I mean!

Unfortunately the concept of ‘shame’ isn’t well researched, especially in sociology. Nevertheless I will attempt a definition here:

Shame is a social condition and a form of social control consisting of an emotional state and a set of behaviors, caused by the consciousness or awareness of having acted inappropriately.
In principle one can distinguish between 3 types of shame: physical, psychical and social.
Shame differs from embarrassment in that it does not necessarily involve public humiliation; one can feel shame for an act known only to oneself, but in order to be embarrassed, one's actions must be revealed to others.
Also, shame often carries the connotation of a ‘shaming’ response applied by persons in authority to actions that are considered morally wrong. But this is the aspect of ‘shame’ that I want to exclude here! The job of judging matters of personal morality, I will leave to the Bush administration and other people with a similar mentality in various countries!

According to this definition, what follows here is not always representative of all cam models and applicable (more or less) only to a certain group of models. In my opinion mainly those models who are highly self-aware and self-reflective! But I guess, the others wouldn’t find their way onto a site like this in any case! Lol.


TYPOLOGY OF CUSTOMERS / VISITORS

So what types of Model/Client interactions can be found on ‘Keeps’ and what is it that the clients are really buying online?:

Type 1: Buying pure ATTENTION

For every one of the following types is the fact, that the customer has the full undivided attention of the model, an important point! Under type 1 I include only those customers, who don't question (or try to shame) the honour and the status of the model. These customers tend to take semi-private as well as private sessions to enjoy a personal conversation with and recognition by the model. As one model told me, her longest private session ever was 3 hours in length where she was only talking with the client, that is, it consisted of her acting simply in her capacity as a “social worker.”


Once begun, this personalized attention has to be continued by the model in free chat (the form of her welcome, or leave-taking, etc) and off site mainly by responses to personal email or phone messages!! (Also type 2-5)


Type 2: Buying VIEWS OF NAKED WOMEN

This type of customer (and the following type) are the type of voyeurs one commonly finds on all porn sites! All they want to see is the model naked with her legs spread wide open. On the ‘Keeps’ site they can make requests about what they want to see and how they want the model to show it to them (especially fetish requests, mainly for anal penetration or a foot show)!!
In general, this kind of “command performance” can touch directly on the “honour” of the model. They can humiliate her and some clients frame their requests consciously in ways that aim at hurting the model’s sense of self-worth!


Type 3: Buying VIEWS OF THE PHYSICAL RESPONSES OF MODELS

A typical demand made by this type of customer is that they want the models 'to cum'! They primarily want see the reactions of the model’s body experiencing an orgasm. Some of them are more interested in the facial reactions of the model than anywhere else on her body!
The personal dignity of the model can be effected by this kind of intimate request. This is especially true if the model is not a good actress. If not, she can be made highly vulnerable to being “shamed” by client's "sick demands" during a "private"!


Type 4: Buying THE MODEL’S FEELINGS

For all other types of customer, the fact, that the model has no (positive) emotional relation to the customer, is not important. They don't care about the models feelings! But for this type of client it is!! He tries hard to get the feelings (a strong form of attention) of the model focused on him - to win her over with kind small talk, by showing care, buying many semis and private sessions for the model will be grateful, (because it represents an important part of her earnings), many mails and phone calls etc – but these are combined NEVERTHELESS with demands for private sessions similar to those requested by of type 2 and/or 3
The dignity of the model is effected (hurt), but it will be offset by the kindness shown by the customer (so there’s a high potential for conflicted feelings here)


Type 5: Buying THE MODEL’S DIGNITY

This type of customer wants to feel that he can control the model! His highest satisfaction is to see that the model will comply with his commands and do whatever he wants! As suggested by this comment made by one customer who said in free chat to a model upon completing a private session with her: “I loved just this once to have real control over you.”

An especially perverted version of this demand for control that I have seen many times, could be called the 'finger-game'. A “good customer” ( one whose private sessions pay for an important share of earnings for the model) demonstrates to ALL PEOPLE IN FREE CHAT that he “owns the model” and can control her will! He directed her to finger to different parts of her body - for example, first to touch her vagina through her sheer panties and then to put her hand in her mouth! The model obeyed like a puppet on a string! Btw, the model had a completely different view of this and called it teasing! From my point of view, fulfilling requests in free chat is NOT teasing, because it's compliance that is coerced by unequal economic circumstances
Not only the shame of the model is affected, but also her self-esteem! These kinds of requests for displays of subordination in a public room are humiliating – as they are often intended to be!!

This typology is, of course, subjective. I tried to work out the pure “ideal types”! But in reality every customer is a mix of several types!

What’s important for me is that a customer shows some respect for the model, and I don't just mean that “blah blah” that goes on in chats!! Respect means here trying to recognize the personal integrity of the model and not to exceed the limits of her “comfort zone.”


Beside type 3, every one of the types described here can be found among the visitors to open rooms too!

If someone is forced to do something what is beyond his or her tolerance level (e.g. their limits of shame or humiliation) it puts stressful pressures on him or her!!!! No human can withstand such a psychic pressure in the long run! You can either solve this problem by taking the pressure away - which means here by quitting this kind of job which is sometimes not possible - or your mind will find a solution on its own and shift your limits (of tolerance for humiliation and alter of your sense of shame) by expanding your ‘zone of indifference’!! This works so slowly that you don't realize it! But not only this! One’s self worth can be damaged and one can internalize a new and different identity, which is centred on one’s acceptance of a socially stigmatized status as a sex worker.



HOW KEEPS WORKS

Keeps has a large number of affiliated studios spread across Europe (and not only there) - but primary in countries which belong to the former Eastern Bloc. In these countries the standard and average household earnings are low and the joblessness (especially among young people) is high compared to the USA or the other leading industrial nations.

The models are mostly between 18 and 20 years and were hired for example with an advertisement in mainstream local newspapers. Depending on their maturity, the young women can have different expectations about the job! All need or want to earn money and/or want to end their unemployment. Most often they are students who have no chance to get another job. The younger naive ones -those with less life experience- hope for some positive effects like improving their knowledge of English, making new friends and having interesting chats! The older ones hope, to keep distance from the intimate sex acts they will be expected to perform on themselves there, and make some serious preparations to get themselves psychologically ready for it. Nevertheless as an older (23y lol) model told me: ...And the main point is that I realized (after some weeks) that I am doing some porno on line.....It took me some time (to get used to that idea).

It should be added here, that the way peope are introduced into this job can be very different in the different countries (or studios). Some models were only told, that all they have to do is work in a video chat room as a hostess who sometimes will do some sexual talk. Other know from the very beginning what is really expected of them! Some studios offer for the first month a guarantee that a model’s time in free chat will be paid independently of the number of minutes that model spends doing private sessions. So the models quickly get used to a situation which brings them good earnings by local standards. But then after that first month is over, the studio only pays them for private or semi private sessions and they are already hooked on the money!




THE IMPACT ON THE MODELS
All models experience under external and internal pressures!


-EXTERNAL PRESSURE-
1. by situation: need/want the money (see above)
2. by boss: if not enough minutes ---> they will be fired
3. by changes in working conditions: ‘Keeps’ has to follow the market

-INTERNAL PREASURE-
This was mentioned in the first part! Here again the main point:
If someone is forced to do something what is behind his or her tolerance level (e. g. limits of shame) it create stress for on him!!
The models react on that by GETTING USED TO..........


TO BEING HURT (1)
In psychology the effect is well known that in case of continuous hurt (physical and psychical) the pain threshold will be lowered!

The models protect themselves with something like a wall around their feelings. A model (with positive attitude towards her work on ‘Keeps’) told me: ‘I prepare myself for it...and i was working like in another world ...u cant use your fealings much ..otherwise u would go in sain'(insane)

With this protection wall and the system private and semi- private sessions, the models learn to suspend their sense of shame, and - step by step - expand their “zone of indifference” so that they “desensitize themselves” and grow numb over time.
The situation is rather perverse: ‘Keeps’ never force any model to do something, but ‘Keeps’ sets the working conditions in such a way, that the models will force themselves! How distressed the models can become is shown in the following remarks by two beginning models: one told me (after her first private session) that she ‘felt bad and dirty’; the other told me (before her first private) that she felt ‘sad’! because she had earned no money and did not feel desired!!! Sitting there 8h without any private session, lowers the models self-esteem and increases their wish for a private session!! But doing a private session often hurts the models sense of dignity (at least in the beginning): One model told me that she simply left a private session!

After some weeks the situation changes:
With every private performance she does, the model gradually gets used to the idea of exposing every part of her body with a select group of customers:

-in PRVT to the main customer and maybe some voyeurs -It’s mandatory!!!
Otherwise she earns no money
-in SEMI to the same group and - i.e. a really small and ‘bad’ video screen - to a
limited number of visitors in chat - only with no full action there ---> an
easy small step
-in FREE CHAT to the same group than in semi, only better video ---> again a
small step

In this way with every private session the readiness of the models to show a little more increases, especially when the earnings are lower than they could be!

I have to point out, that similar mechanisms exist at the psychic and social level. They are even worse but more complex!


TO LIVING IN A VIRTUAL WORLD (2)
Subtracting sleep time, most of the day the model stays in chat! After a while this determines her thinking and her actions!

Many models go to their chat and hold court! And who courts her favour? First of all, the customers and visitors (mostly). And just as important her 'virtual friends'! I call them the models 'fan club' –and every model has one! The model needs them, because spending 8 hours in front of the cam -especially with rude visitors- can makes for deep loneliness*! The 'friends' need it, because they become important! Sometimes the administrators (men - in Europe only in chats in CIS -In the meantime it changed-) also belong to the circle of 'courtiers'!

All of them share an interest in keeping the model at ‘Keeps’ as do of course her boss(es) too, so long as she has she earns enough minutes that is!

*There is another reason! Model and 'friends' are tied together, because they share in a secret.
Nearly every model keeps her job at ‘Keeps’ secret! So nearly nobody in the real world of the model knows about it! There is no one, she can talk to about it! She can talk only with her 'virtual friends'! (This forum want help to change it). Often the models feel ‘bad’ about that job. But their 'friends’ accept them, even adore them! This creates a feeling of solidarity! So in the final analysis, the influence of these ‘friends’ can become tremendous!

My experience (taken from conversations with models) shows that most of these ‘on-line’ friendships end, whenever the model leaves the ‘Keeps’ website.



TO HAVING(PSEUDO-) POWER (3)
Regarding exercise of power, the models are offenders and victims (like the customers too)! They sometimes get a feeling of "real empowerment" online.
Remark: The only real winners are the web-pimps!!!

REAL POWER

-VICTIM-
The model can be victim in respect to the customers (type 5)

She also can become victim, if a disappointed customer or 'virtual friend' use some personal data of the model to bother her in public (one rather offensive trick: tell the real age of the model -nearly every girl who is older than 20 puts a lower age in bio) After a while those people have enough knowledge about the model to be able to hurt her. There is nothing the model can do against it!

Obviously the special situation in private can encourage an emotional attachment with customers! But even ‘kind customers’ are often not interested in maintaining a long lasting personal relationship with a model at a porn site!

The intimate situation in chat (physically AND psychically) seems sometimes only be tolerated by the model, when she believes, the relation is unique! The fact, that the model normally can’t see, that her special customer behaves similarly in other rooms with other models, boosts the chances of fooling herself!

-AGRESSOR-
The model has a strong influence on visitors, customers and 'friends'! This is one point that can make her addicted to that job!
-Teasing makes some visitors addicted to the model (at least they tell this)
-chat in private (especially those with ‘social worker’ aspect) can make some customers addicted to the model
-Giving the 'virtual friends' the feeling of being important, makes them addicted to the model


PSEUDO-POWER
The models have also some other possibility to demonstrate power, and feel "empowerment" in the situation, but for me, it is pseudo-power!

-they can set rules in their chats
-they can kick visitors
-they can ignore visitors
-they can favour one or another visitor, especially with rituals like welcomes or goodbyes

I call it pseudo-power for several reasons (see below)! Finally the only purpose of the chat is to identify who will be a potential customer! And for this they have to put up with a lot:

-Some visitors look upon the model as sex object -the human being behind the mask is uninteresting
- The model is exposed to public view like being in the zoo
- Some visitors are very rude and ask humiliating questions

Finally the model (here for me victim and offender at the same time) is forced to a schizophrenic behaviour, especially with existing customers:
She might think to him as being an asshole, but she has to tell him -kisses, I miss you-
She might simulate an orgasm, but she has to tell him: ‘Yes, it was great’ when he asks ‘Did you cum?’ (again a physical example, but applicable to psychological response in social situations too)


TO GETTING COMPLIMENTS ALL DAY (4)
Nearly all people have problems to accept themselves or at least need external confirmation! So it can be said, every model likes to get compliments! The models in the chats hear those compliments over hours and some become addicted to it! To have the (positive) attention of other people over so many hours obviously causes a special (positive) feeling! It's not important how serious the compliments are and why the visitors tell them. A model told me: ‘Another thing, that I was very surprised of, is the fact, that girls have the impression, that everybody admires them for their beauty’. And indeed, I found the same phrases in rooms with models who only could be called ‘beauties’ but also in rooms of (sorry, even if tastes are different) rather ugly models.


TO LIES (5)
To protect themselves, the models have to live in (free-) chat with a pseudo identity. So every answer to their person and many answers about their mood and sexuality are lies! In private or semi private sessions it can be even worse, especially with type 4 customers who obsess about feelings. They have to lie every day over many hours! It's unimaginable, that in the small time they have for their real life, they can completely switch over and come back to themselves.


TO HAVING MORE MONEY (6)
It's a matter of fact in daily life that the more someone earns, the more money he spends!
Because of the living standards in their countries, most of the models earn a lot of money by local standards. With the amount of money they earn, their demands increase! That means, that their target often only can be reached, if they continue working at Keeps for a long time!


THE IMPACT ON VISITORS

-AGGRESSOR-
Please see chapter about ‘Typology’

-VICTIMS-
Please see chapter about ‘Power’



THE FUTURE
For a forecast of how ‘Keeps’ could change in the future looking at some of it’s competitors might be helpful! Two of them -in Europe/Germany- are www.xxXX.com (multilingual) and www.XXxxxx.com (German). The number of girls is bigger than at ‘Keeps’! The prices are much lower -about 2.30$ per minute instead of about 6$ per minute at ‘Keeps’! The models offer nearly everything: fisting, peeing, torture and of course feet show and anal penetration! Some even offer contacts for real date off line….

Other adverse trends that might impact on ‘Keeps’ have already been described elsewhere on this forum.

Over the past few months more and more women from Central- and South- America ( Brazil, Columbia, and Venezula) and the Philippines have started their work on ‘Keeps’. It seems only a question of time (and the growth of the Internet) until African women will be thrown into the competition and join the other groups who are exploited by web-pimps.

These results that I described here will happen sooner or later, but they will happen!!!
Every model will find divergences from her own experience. Most of the information came from long conversations with models (but never as paying customer). But nevertheless I’m aware that I only can describe a ‘typical’ situation, not an ‘individual’ one. So more discussion is always welcome!

What are the conclusions? Everyone has to make their own ones! I once asked a model who had in the beginning a very positive attitude towards ‘Keeps’ about what were the advantages of her job and she answered (but only once she had quit): ‘What I enjoyed in ‘Keeps’.....lol. When I start thinking about it I can surely say that NOTHING]



You can download this text in English as PDF-file under the link below.

You can download this text in Polish as PDF-file under this link..

You can download this text in Russian as PDF-file under this link. (to be planned)


Thanks to Uncle, who gave some support to make this text more accessible to English speakers.

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Click here to view the attachment
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#1 [url]

Nov 9 06 12:12 PM



Wow Tom...very nice work indeed..
It reads like the product of months of careful observation, and lots of caring conversations with the cam-models on "Keeps."

Keeps is one website where I never made much progress - and where the "Greenie" admins always kept me under close surveillance when they didn't just kick me off the site - as they just did one more time last week.


The models there were very discrete to say the least, and always fearful of sharing information of any sort. So I know just how hard it must have been for you to gain their trust; get them to open up and to reveal some of their deepest, darkest trade secrets. So Tom, Uncle takes off his Hat in salute.

What you have accomplished here is a great example of just how much a determined "field researcher" can accomplish - by interviewing people on line - toward shedding some light on an illegal and very secretive industry that just keeps on growing worldwide. And yes, you are right "Africa" is probably the next region to be brought on line as adult entertainment meant for our "viewing pleasure"


The typology you have created shows real thought about a "carefree form" of sexual recreation that most male clients just sit back and "enjoy" without ever giving it much serious consideration. Cam models are just "taken private" and taken for granted. Given the hostility towards women that underlie their motivations of at least some clients, I guess their reluctance to think about what they are really doing - or the woman to whom they are doing it - is not all that surprising. What's more surprising is the unwillingness of most models to reflect upon just much how this work can change them - change their self-image and their capacity to trust men.

And yet you encouraged them to do just that in the second part of this piece -where you take apart the myth widely shared by the student cam-girls in Keeps' Russian Studios that somehow this industry is about promoting "international friendships" rather than just showing their "popku" online. We know of course it's main purpose is making piles of money for a bunch of American Web-pimps in Las Vegas, Nevada by marketing "the student body" of Petrozavodsk State University in Russia, not to mention several other faculties in the Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Russia and the Ukraine (see our studio location list), to the horny sex tourists of the Western World.


So allow me to add one comment to your discussion of "shame" - which I found especially insightful and interesting.

Social scientists have been talking about the "prestige/honor" aspect of social status since Max Weber's time, but also about the stress that "social stigma" brings to the people who work in professions that are labelled as "deviant."

I agree with you that we are not talking about personal “guilt” here – but something that touches on social prestige or stigma associated with any occupation. If you will, “it's the degree of public honor or dishonor that is attached to a social role” and how that honor or “shame” is internalized by the social agents who perform that role in real life. It’s the intangible dimension of “status” that one smart web-pimp was targeting when he advertised his student cam models to potential webmaster affiliates as girls who were ready to “Ruin their reputations in order to get an education….”

And certainly many of the models we see on line are caught in a nasty SIDS contradiction - a situation of Status/Income Dissonance... Many are either students or university graduates, who should enjoy some social prestige as "culturny-intelligentz" even if they are poor. But these students have solved their financial issues by entering a sex work profession that threatens to destroy both their sense of self worth and whatever social honor they may have earned by working hard to get a university diploma.

This point has been brought home to all of us by this year's Police raids across the Ukraine which recently resulted in the arrest and detention for three days of 27 students and 2 translators who were all recruited from some of the top "presitige" universities in Kyiv - the honor roll of institutions of higher learning iwho students sold themselves on line is a long one. These students now face possible expulsion from their schools, prosecution for violating the Ukraine's anti-pornography laws, or at the very least, having a permanent record entered into their official employment files that they were arrested for "virual prostitution." This is an official badge of "shame" that they may have to wear for the rest of their lives - as in Hawthorne's novel The Scarlet Letter.

Living this status contradiction daily must be a terrible bind. To live simultaneously as "good student" in your everyday world and at the same time work as a "nasty, funky cam-hoe" when you appear on line. It's a terrible, frightening secret, which as you point out so accurately, they can share with no-one in their real lives - only with their new "friends on line." No wonder then that their lives come to turn more and more around video chat to exclusion of everything and everyone else. It's not only about the money - it's about managing the psychological "dissonance" that comes with the stigma they must learn to live with somehow.


So thank you Tom, for this great job of social analysis.

The "Hard Sciences" maybe your trade, but sociology should be your calling.

I think that your typology of male motivation is both accurate and comprehensive. I hope that it will provoke serious responses from both models and regular members.

UL
cool.gif

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#2 [url]

Dec 17 06 12:31 AM

Well Tom, you did great work indeed!
I think the description you wrote here, is very recognisable for everyone who ever visited a cam site. You describe here the different users who visits those cam girls perfectly, I myself have nothing to add here...

About what you said on about, how some girls finds such a cam-girl job, that they are lead into such a job with false expectations is very true.. I can confirm that...
Precisely 1 year ago, I was talking with a girl on Keeps called Darling. She also told me that she found this job, because of an advertisement, in which it was written that they needed internet chat hostesses.. She told me back then, she didn't had the clue about that it was about nude cam shows....
She was not really willing to be nude during pvts.., so she only stayed on that job for about 2 months or so... and disappeared.., She was one of the first who let me understand back then, that such a job is full of trouble, and with what things those girls have to deal. At about the same time, i was in talk with a similar girl called Cxxxxxxxx, she also had a fight with the Keeps' rulebook back then...

Also the "fanclub" category is very recognisable, and yes every model/girl have such a fan-base..., but like a former translator called these guys, including me..., it was a "fun-club"... cool.gif

So different visitors with different motives..., It's a difficulty for those girls to see the difference between the right from the wrong people, like many girls told me... "It's a zoo out there" ..I guess they are right, who can be trusted? and who not?
Who telling the truth, and who is not.... and not to speak about models who are new on such a studio, of course they must get used to the idea of showing themselves in the nude, but mostly they are just the normal "girl next door" many students...So it must be difficult and not easy at all...

Not to speak about the economic thing..., those girls are stressed because of it, they have to have privates to survive in such a job..., They are obligated to keep certain visitors of their chat room satisfied and happy, no matter what they ask. These are relationships based on money...Well I have already said in other topics what I think about the economic relationships of customers. In my opinion they make use of this situation, but like I said, different users, different people.. I agree with the idea that those customers are victims too, just like the models in one way or another...

And yes in the end, the webpimp is the winner of all this... It's them along with the local studio owners who earn money from all this... So let me tell you the "customers", this forum is here also for you.. Let this forum be here for you too to open up your eyes, and see though things, and invest your money more wisely, I would say...

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#4 [url]

Dec 18 06 2:47 PM

QUOTE (Supernova @ December 17, 2006 12:31 am)
So let me tell you the "customers", this forum is here also for you.. Let this forum be here for you too to open up your eyes, and see though things, and invest your money more wisely, I would say... 

ahhhhhhh Supernova i bet all models are happy to read this advice...
yeah guys spend your money more wisely...... on me

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#5 [url]

Dec 18 06 3:00 PM

cool.gif
So Delfina if we follow ur advice..and spend our money on you.. what is it that we are getting exactly? Your "friendship?" The rental of your time and the illusion of controll over your body for the duration of a limited "command performance"?

And what is it that you are getting out of this?

Besides a small portion of the money we spend on "you" - since almost all of it goes on a one way trip to either Canada or Brooklyn?

A power trip? "Online Friends..?"

What's really in this for you, Delfina?

Ul

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#6 [url]

Dec 18 06 3:04 PM

UL i just wanted to be sarcastic....
What i would get of this? Good shift of course...thats for sure
Anything else depends more on a person than on money spent .

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

Quote    Reply   

#7 [url]

Dec 18 06 3:23 PM

Okay Hun,

I believe you, and I always have.. You don't bullshit people.

But still what's a "good shift" according to you?

And what do the people you meet online really give you?
So many of the guys in your room are truly awful people - aggressive, inconsiderate, rude and worst of all, unkind..

And yes, Delfina, I am asking you to open up to us in a new way...
for no pay at all. The ultimate "freebie" in free chat, lol.

But let's really talk about this modelling business.

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#8 [url]

Dec 18 06 3:38 PM

Thanks for the trust UL
But i wanna tell you that no need to search for philosophic sense in everything...especially in words 'good shift'... of course more privates, less beggers and more nice people... or just lots lots of privates
Yes lots of 'aggressive, inconsiderate, rude and worst of all, unkind' people in my room but i dont care for them too much. Thats my work and it is like it is. I care for others - nice, sweet, caring - and i have such people too. And if someone wants to be agressive and rude going private so whatever... he gets a show but not my emotions and feelings.
To make shows for no pay? haha i dont believe in charity Here goes the irony: i wouldnt mind to show something for free for really good person...but really good person will never ask anything like this

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

Quote    Reply   

#9 [url]

Dec 18 06 3:59 PM


Oh Delfina, I was being ironic too...... Not hoping for a "free show.."

The ultimate "freebie" is this exchange....
The fact that we are holding this conversation - across opposite sides of the ocean.. and of the small screen....

I should add that I am happy to have you as a member.. and a partner in this dialogue.

And yes of course, you are right...
Uncle does tend to "over-intellectualize" everything..
and run hard from emotions....
That's why he's a bit tone deaf sometimes.....

Ul

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#10 [url]

Dec 18 06 8:47 PM

QUOTE (delfina @ December 18, 2006 04:38 pm)
Thanks for the trust UL
But i wanna tell you that no need to search for philosophic sense in everything...especially in words 'good shift'... of course more privates, less beggers and more nice people... or just lots lots of privates 
Yes lots of 'aggressive, inconsiderate, rude and worst of all, unkind' people in my room but i dont care for them too much. Thats my work and it is like it is. I care for others - nice, sweet, caring - and i have such people too. And if someone wants to be agressive and rude going private so whatever... he gets a show but not my emotions and feelings.
To make shows for no pay? haha i dont believe in charity Here goes the irony: i wouldnt mind to show something for free for really good person...but really good person will never ask anything like this 

Besides that Delfina, what do you think of Tom78's analyse on the camshow websites visitors ? Realist ? Complete ?
It would be interesting to have your "model" opinion about it


But to go back to what has been said earlier in this thread..I don't know if there is any wise way to spend one's money...

Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#11 [url]

Dec 19 06 7:15 PM

Well, in my 'model's' opinion.... it was ...interesting:)
Interesting to see how it all looks like from another side of the screen
But truly I didn't find that much of the truth about how I see this work and chat. But I also can't answer for all models.
The thing that was the least understandable for me was the use lots of times of word 'shame'. If a model really feels so much shame about her work, I really think she should quit this job...and go join the nuns for example.

Of course I dont tell people that I know where I'm working: not to most of my friends, nor to my parents. But not because I feel ashamed but because I know I won't meet with any understanding from them. I don't wanna say that my work is so great but it's my job and it gives me money to live.

So I can't understand models who say:"Ahhh my work is so terrible, all the customers are jerks'. These 'jerks' ( and of course I dont mean beggers, these types of people don't even deserve my attention) pay money to see me and to fulfill their fantasies. And I try to respect them and their fantasies too, even if they seem 'perverted' and 'weird' to me, and even though I would never do anything like that in real life. It's not real life on cam, it's just a show.
As for the people who spend money just to talk to me, or to make me feel better while am on shift, I always appreciate that. This work is so much more than just getting naked on cam and using toys. It also needs some brains, personality and at least a bit of actors talent. It needs much more to make customers interested than just to be pretty and 'tease' them in free chat.

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#12 [url]

Dec 23 06 3:57 PM


By the way, I think it's worth sharing Hudson's thought that this industry is imploding in ways that will make sites like Keeps increasing non- competitive.

This comes back to Tom's original insight that customers are after something other than just pure "sexual images" and simple voyeurism....

There is lots of porn pics and videos that are available for free.. full films not just short teasers...And now there are Dutch cam video sites that are offering voyeur mode views of their cam models private sessions free of charge as well. I guess they are hoping that they can increase general traffic on their site in this manner.. and" filter" out the sub-set of clients who are paying either for "sexual command over a model" or greater emotional intimacy from her in private chat.


In any case, the per minute prices on PF or Keeps or MFC - which are currently about $6.00 per minute except for "featured shows" - are simply not sustainable in an internet market where the same level of service is available for $1.99 or less and sometimes even for free.

So with the proliferation of free porn and cam vids, and the circulation of screen caps and video recordings of private sessions, the pay sites risk being overwhelmed by the free riders and their cut-rate competition in the Global East and South.

Just some thoughts...about how and when this whole industry might "implode."
UL
And thanks to Hudson for the original insight on this.

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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Tom78

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Posts: 64

#13 [url]

Dec 24 06 3:17 PM

Hello Delfina!

Thank you for giving here another point of view! I appreciate that much!

As I already told, this description is not a product of my fantasy! But on the other hand I have to admit, it is (in it's point of view) also neither representative for the majority of visitors nor for ALL models!
Of course there is more than 1 truth! See the following quote out of my post:

QUOTE
Every model will find divergences from her own experience. Most of the information came from long conversations with models (but never as paying customer). But nevertheless I’m aware that I only can describe a ‘typical’ situation, not an ‘individual’ one. So more discussion is always welcome!


And I can confirm some of your statements. For example about shame!
Indeed, this is a feeling which no model can "afford" in the long term! And you are right! Many models leave the site within the first 3 months. And those models who stay longer are getting indifferent to this feelings - the only way to handle it! Some are building a world of her own around themselves and live there very comfy! Of course I let them. I'm neither a do-gooder nor a missionary. Other live in such a world already when they meet that site!

Let me give a quote of a model to this:
I just wanted to admit that there is NO girl who .... has shame or proud, even she has them, she is losing it with the day.(she joined that cam site)
And, Delfina: The opposite of not be ashamed is NOT joining nuns

And telling about it to friends or family members:
Call it how you want! Fact is, that discussion, or the trouble, that you would get (that absence of understanding) refers to your breach (violation) of existing standards in your society. As Uncle call it, it would stigmatise you if you would make it public! This can't be a pleasant state for you! So you are doing the right thing! BTW I saw several models, sometimes after months, leaving their cam site in a panic, for fear that someone they know from their real life would recognise them! It often took some time until they realised that the promises of the studio owners, that no one in their country could ever see them, were simply lies!


Tom78

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#14 [url]

Sep 30 07 3:34 AM

Hmm..............

I'm too drained,tired to write a good response to this topic that would make any sense or be worth reading.. But here I say some things anyway..

Maybe I would ask people to enjoy going outside and not be on computer alot,models and customers or just bullshitter chatters alike.

Most girls on Cam sites are probably there to make money,and they do not intend to have it as a long term job.When certain models make alot of money,they will stay as long as they can do it.

I have never tried to be anything more than friends ((friend description)(( a person you think you can trust and tell more about yourself than you would other people,someone that you would never hurt mentally or physically )))..
You can pay for private with anyone,but they decide if you are to be a real friend or not.
Girls are paid to say things or do things to make more money on cam but they are still human,,not a robot or extension of your computer keyboard...
I have had many friends (people I like to talk with but do not talk sexually with ,unless just joking around ))..Some friends were models and others not models. I like people mostly for how they are as a person((How they give respect to other people in all jobs and life even if they do not agree with them.))
You can make all the rules you want for models or customers,but people are always going to be human and cross boundary's that are set ...
I see no shame in people showing their bodies but they better understand there is alot more to themselves than their outward appearance or no amount of money will ever be enough. The girls or women that I have met or talked to that I like the most are strong willed or do not let other people tell them what to do,even if paid to.. Everyone has the right to tell some asshole to go fuk off...
If a person want's respect from others,they either have to demand it or show they will not move or budge from their ideas or ways and gain respect that way.

Do what makes you feel most comfortable or happy in life,no matter what country you live in.. Do not expect everyone to like you or understand you just as you might not like certain types of people also.

I say, join me outside for a cup of blueberry tea with some honey in it and enjoy the warm sun or moonlight on your face,depending on where u are..


Jerks will always be jerks,and chataholics will always type until you go priv or kick them..

Internet Models fly away and dissapear into cyberspace, sometimes never to reappear again..
Money can't buy anyone a personality... Life experiences mold people into who they are... We are born nude,what is to be ashamed of besides what society has shown us as not acceptable? Maybe that we started wearing clothes to feel better or worth more than the wilderness animals that we run over with our air and water polluting cars?

Money is like manure; it's not worth a thing unless it's spread around encouraging young things to grow. Thornton Wilder


You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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#15 [url]

Sep 30 07 10:48 PM

I know I have one friend who is seriously looking for work outside the industry but is unable to find a job that will pay enough 1) Not to live with her parents and 2) Let her take the extra classes she needs to take. (both i terms of being able to work flexible hours and pay scale)

I also have another friend who has opted for erotic modeling rather than work on chat. She is now one of the top 5 models in her agency. I'm not sure what the difference between soft core porn and erotic modeling is. If you know let me know.

Another simply that is her work and it lets her have a family life. Her bf knows and encourages her.

Only one friend has told her parents and turned out her mother was very accepting of it seeing she pays for school. None of them are ashamed of what they do but it will be less problems if their families don't know.

There are many reasons my friends are there but it boils down to money and time. If it were not for the studios these women would not be able to fulfill their dreams different as they may be. As for the good shift I don't think it matters if there are no beggars if there are no privates then it is a bad shift. I say this for two reasons 1) If they are in private they don't have to deal with the jerks. (Yes there are some in pvt but i have also seen models kick users from pvt. 2) If they aren't in private they are not making money and it is a job. Having friends in the room simply helps pass the time on a bad shift. The one reason they tell me they want to get out of the business is the freeloaders who interfere with them getting paying customers and begging to see free shows.

I don't think models have to apologize or give reasons why customers visit or say what they give the customer. What they give the customer is what the customer thinks they are getting. This is an interactive movie where you write the script. If you believe the movie you created is real then thats your problem.

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#16 [url]

Oct 1 07 5:48 AM


all this deep psyocoligal look into minds of model and minds of clients. Some people are jerks, and go to chat to be jerks. Some people wanna wanking so they go to chat to wanking. Girl needs a job to pay bills, so she does webcam. Why all the psycology?

There are things I do with computers, when sometimes I have to calling or chatting someone and telling them bullshit (email is not very good for this). It is very very rare that it doesn't work. Am I using psycology and probing his deep iner thoughts? No, I am using common sense.

All these people in chat, its what called the 'Internet Fuckwad Theory'

Audiance + Annonymous = fuckwad

There is no deep psycologil meaning to it. Its common sense.

All of this 'OMG Guest3284 just called that model a bad name! There must be a deeper meaning to it!' is boggling to me

Its just my opinion, please don't think I'm putting you or your ideas down. I can see you put alot of effort and thought into it. But maybe, sometimes people just thinking to much?

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#17 [url]

Oct 9 07 6:51 AM

Kykysha you mean as Sigmund Freud said to his daughter "Anna sometimes a banana is just a banana" Sorry just came to mind and yes I stole it from SNL

Looking back over this thread I think Tim hit my feelings on the head and realy couldn't be said much better.

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#19 [url]

Oct 9 07 8:24 PM

@ grthngs3 : lol

@ kykysha : let me quote Albert Einstein : "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". For me you make it VERY simple

V.

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#20 [url]

May 27 09 10:44 PM

I have managed to get to the end of this discussion eventually! Wow, Fantastic work. You hit the nail on the head Tom!
I feel I am too drained also to give a well thought out response, Tim , Delfina, good points too; I like your style and Kykysha, when I first discovered this site I was amazed by the 'too much thinking' as some of the discussions are mind boggling with the pyschological skeletons these guys haul out of the member's closets; but I really like this post, I think it is relevant and applies to cam girls, whether they like to admit it or not...

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