#21 [url]

Dec 4 09 7:42 AM

Wow, recently someone mentioned how chat here becomes cyclic in nature. I believe it was Comicstash who said that.

Well folks, Rs3,Miss Jane and our recent arrival, facile, welcome to a cyclic deja vu so to speak now.

You have all returned and brought back to life a topic, a discussion, morals, and opinions, that have been written about quite a while back on this forum.

See Miss Jane and all the rest who write and read here,have any of you heard the sayings" What's old is new again" and the proverb


"what goes around, comes around"

1. The status eventually returns to its original value after completing some sort of cycle.
2. A person's actions, whether good or bad, will often have consequences for that person.

What I am explaining to everyone is: Nothing has changed when it comes to this industry that much, but for one thing..... the names and faces that fill the void of those that left it are different. Now the redundant cyclic chat and discussion has come full circle but only the participants have changed.


If history is the written text of occurrences and actions of others from the past, or shall we say, to be learned from and about. Then does the redundant chat topics that become cyclic in nature here, indicate something that is notable and worthwhile? cool.gif

Perhaps someone can learn from these stories, eh.

Ooops, please forgive me I have gone off topic.

So, Miss Jane, would you ever tell someone to not go pvt,if I may ask?

And yes, facile, I have been told quite bluntly, from a few models I know or knew, not to go pvt or that I don't belong there,even in free chat.

Hmmmm...... was that friendly advice or their consciences speaking? I know all of them were sincere and genuine. Go figure.

Carry on.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#22 [url]

Dec 4 09 9:36 AM

Thanks Trainer, Love ur tone of text too))) bet you were rolling back ur eyes also.

Even though it goes around and around, the forum is still relevant because people here learn from others experiences and our own experiences as we travel through life.....

.am sure its has been said b4 here ( just hard to find sometimes Trainer....forgive me))

And when people are honest with them selfs, they will eventually realize , ( like the old members have a long time ago) you can come to only one conclusion about this business))

I try not to Jude peoples ethics)

The models would all like easy customers, just read their profiles what type of customer they like, and dislike....

So what happens to mister MasterCard when he feel duped by the model for leading him on....... he possibly retorts to the view that all women are whores, and just becomes another rude beggar in another girls room.. so the women attract what they dont want , by the very way they play their game



Trainer is that what you mean by "what goes around comes around"...?

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#23 [url]

Dec 4 09 8:24 PM

Miss Jane, I liked your comparison between Live sex chat and fast food..

Speaking of MacDonalds did you ever see the film "Super-size it?" where the filmmaker goes on a MacDonalds diet and becomes desperately ill at the end of one month?

Doesn't MacDonalds, Taco Bell, or Pizza Hut bear some responsibility for the epidemic of obesity in America? Especially among the bottom half of the population who are low income or "working poor, and who subsist on a "fast food diet" because they don't have the time or the money to eat regular meals at home?

Now I agree that "fast sex" offered by the porn industry is akin to "fast food" in that it teaches people how to have "bad sex" and to forgo the "real deal" in pursuit of a "day-dream..."

But I have known cam models who faced your situation with your problem member.
Their solution was to refuse to go "private" with these customers after a certain point. In other words, they "cut them off" - like a responsible "barman."

Others I know went out their way to remind their clients that a relationship with a "real woman" was better than any experience they could hope to have with them..

Haven't you ever been tempted to intervene with a problem customer and straighten them out before they hurt themselves?

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#24 [url]

Dec 4 09 9:34 PM

I love this thread now.

No facile, I was referring to the discussions on this forum. But yes, anywhere in life, even in the world of cyber sex what comes around goes around...


Great comparison Uncle Lewis.

But I ask, what does that tell us about people?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#25 [url]

Dec 4 09 11:37 PM


It tell as that people dont know whats good for them selfs

and its easy to go through the drive through and not give much thought about waht your actually consuming.



I know Junk food is not good for your health....I'm a Chef

Sure to have Junk Food once every few months dosnt really do us any harm,

but consume it every day, leaves a bad taste in your mouth and stomach.

Same goes for Junk Porn



The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#26 [url]

Dec 5 09 4:45 AM

QUOTE (MissJane @ December 04, 2009 01:25 am)
Lol rs3. Does he need a shrink? I dunno. I think hes just lonely. (FYI, I believe he maxed out his card because he told me the other day hes gotta cut back on his spending until next month.)

But I have no intention of severing the relationship. He wants my undivided attention he'll have to pay for prvt. Otherwise hes more the welcome to hang around in the free chat areas if he chooses. I just wont interact with him as much there. (and honestly he hasnt been hanging around in free chat too much cause it bothers him not having my full attention and he cant afford any more prvts for a while)

Now yeah, I get what youre saying, especially reading what I just wrote, hes definately got issues but oh my - deluding myself? why is it the models responsiblity to right all the wrongs in the world!

Do you think the cashiers at Mcdonalds should take the same attitude to overweight customers? Its no more unethical for them to serve greasy hamburgers then it is for me to chat with him. Its not my call what he does with his money.I provide a service and its not up to me to monitor the customer.

Mmmm 9 hours, even at $3/min, is close to $1,800. Lets assume he got some free points in there, and so $1,500. If this is one of the higher cost sites, he probably spent a good deal more. If he can afford it, great, I guess. He will eventually discover what this is about, and won't have lost a lot. But, more than likely he will end up a good bit in debt, sad, and rather messed in the head.

Is it your responsibility? What if you do say something, and he merely goes elsewhere and you lose?

And, I do not know your situation. For all I know, you need the money to feed your elderly parents. I'm not being sarcastic, either. You might really need it.

But, unless this guy really makes some money, I suspect he is going to end up in trouble. BTW: people with normal incomes in normal financial situations that can afford this sort of thing do not max their cards at $1,500. They've dropped the limits quite a bit recently, but most professional people can buy a car on a credit card. Maybe he's being responsible and realizes he is at his personal spending limit. You think?

"why is it the models responsiblity to right all the wrongs in the world!" - if there is a wrong here, you can right it. That's why.

"Do you think the cashiers at Mcdonalds should take the same attitude to overweight customers?" Because they would be fired. Also, does your job demand more skill than a cashier? Should you not be able to apply a higher sense of right and wrong if so? And if you would be fired (I forget if you are independent or not), then that is a consideration.

Anyhow, I know it sounds like I am being hard on you, but please realize that I consider this more of a debate, than me offering judgment on you. I do not think less of you as a person because I really am not part of this situation, and I know very little about you.

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#27 [url]

Dec 5 09 1:48 PM



QUOTE
It tell as that people dont know whats good for them selfs

and its easy to go through the drive through and not give much thought about waht your actually consuming.



I know Junk food is not good for your health....I'm a Chef

Sure to have Junk Food once every few months dosnt really do us any harm,

but consume it every day, leaves a bad taste in your mouth and stomach.

Same goes for Junk Porn



I think that which you describe, can be called an addiction,yes or no? Or your a pirate spending hours capping stuff.

QUOTE
Anyhow, I know it sounds like I am being hard on you, but please realize that I consider this more of a debate, than me offering judgment on you. I do not think less of you as a person because I really am not part of this situation, and I know very little about you.


You can say that again Rs3

C'mon, let's be honest here. Why do you think a model would let their client continue entering and paying for the private even while subconsciously the angel and devil sitting on their shoulders are argueing with each other?

Perhaps, one can add in what a studio boss would say as well. "Follow the rules, or you will be sanctioned, and be penalized or fired".

tben wrote it quite succinctly, keep the cash flowing in. How does a model do that?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#28 [url]

Dec 5 09 4:43 PM

Thanks for the topic MJ. It is a valid observation and I wish some of you other performers would chime in on it.

Not all of us have blinders on.

Cam work is a J.O.B. The women and men who perform must have a particular mind-set (read "moral flexibility") to even be able to do it. They're not looking for love or friends, they're punching a clock.

Suggesting MJ is responsible for Mr. 9hours and his feelings seems silly to me. While there is some concern about the emotional toll it's taking on the member, kudos to you MJ, it's still a job and still a porn site. Part of the job IS manipulating emotions. Where a performer draws the line is completely up to them. Where a member draws the line is also completely up to them. Where is everone's common sense?? We are responsible for our own emotions, feelings, and moral compass. You go to a porn site, don't expect to find the girl next door.

"Warning, frequent interaction with porn models may cause emotional distress."

Well, duh.

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#29 [url]

Dec 5 09 5:12 PM

Off topic here.....

This thread was separated from the Andreea thread by Uncle Lewis, just an FYI.



Never mind me, I will be over there ===============================> camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#30 [url]

Dec 5 09 10:34 PM

Well first to clarify some things.

Trainer is correct. I didnt start this thread. Nor do I necessarioly agree with the title of 'problem clients'. I dont view him as a problem. At least not right now.

Secondly. Hes not an urban professional. Hes actually a 24 yr old, social awkward I suppose you can you say young man who is still living at home with his parents... So yeah I believe he has expended his personal credit limit. (but maybe hes lying. I dont know) I have no reason to suspect he is lying as he is actively counting down the days till we can interact alone again...

Regardless, I agree more with coolbreeze on this. Where is everyones common sense? People lately seem to be always passing the blame. Its never thier responsibilty but someone elses. Some one shouldve stopped them. Oh my! What happened to personal responsiblty?

I love your warning coolbreeze but come on! is it really necessary!? Yes hot coffee will burn your lips. And paying a girl to strip for you on cam does not equal love or sincere friendship...

(also I have never refered any members to CGN, nor do I believe I ever will.. There is one who I considered refering. A very sweet guy whos a bit naive. We chat every day for about 15 mins when he gets home from work (free chat) rather non sexual in nature, and every friday he tips me 20 dollars. very recently he told me about another model who is pressuring him to send her a rather expensive bottle of perfume. He wasnt asking me about my opinion of it, but rather if i knew of a less expensive similar scent or place he could purchase it cheaper. I wasnt sure what to say to that. How can I say as a cam girl that cam girls are scammers? lol. So i reminded him to use his common sense. Told him I didnt think a guy should buy a girl perfume unless hes close enough to actually smell it on her.Same for a necklace or a ring. Unless you can slip it on her finger or hold her hair to put it around her neck dont do it. He seemed to understand. It was just hard for him to see this girl he likes almost in tears when he told her he couldnt send it to her. She then banned him from her room... sigh)


I dont believe I will ever tell someone not to go prvt. or not to frequent the site. Its thier decision. Just like to work in it is mine. Im secure in my ethics right now in this. My conscience is clear. I realize Im no mother teresa. I dont donate 20 percent of my income to my church. I dont volunteer to feed the homeless. And I dont patrol the internet looking for lost souls. I guess you can say anyone that does is a better person then me.

But that doesnt make me a bad person. I do support my local library. I recycle. I even threw a few bucks into one of those salvation army plates last time I was at the supermarket. I dont feel I expolit members even though I have the chance to I dont. Sure I can do more. everyone can. But Im satisfied with the balance I have right now.

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#31 [url]

Dec 5 09 11:59 PM

How would you like me to alter the title.. And I started this thread because I thought that MissJane had raised an interesting issue..and wouldn't have done so unless she wanted some discussion..

And when I talk about the "responsibility for bad sex" I was thinking more of the web-sites rather than the people they employ - who have to work according to their rules and under their constant supervision..

Interestingly, if you look at this old thread on "Porn Creep" (see below) one of the more interesting topics on internet addiction was written by the woman Resident Sexual Health Advisor, Joy Davidson (with a Ph.D. no less) on IFriends - which has a forum for members and professionals to advise them with sexual and relationship problems..

http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=503

So Imlive is aware that there are issues with internet addictions and took some action... I guess sort of like MacDonalds introducing more Fresh Salads and Nutritional Advice to go with their "Happy Meals" ..lol

Of course, Some of our model members play this kind of advisor/therapist role for their regular clients and do step into warn people when they sense an obvious problem.. Just the way you did MissJane, when you helped talk to this guy out being scammed...

So there.. a "Christmas Carol" after all...
And "God Bless us, one and all..."

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#32 [url]

Dec 6 09 1:29 AM

Title change perhaps = How to deal with all types of clients

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#33 [url]

Dec 8 09 3:46 AM

Common sense leaves when one meets someone who is particularly good at relieving you of it.

It leaves, in my opinion, when someone convinces you the earth is 6,000 years old.

It leaves ....

It apparently leaves when you meet a good camgirl that causes you to max out your credit card when you are 24 years old and still living at home.

Miss Jane, is it your "responsibility" to deal with this situation? Not really. You are not the sole creator of it, most likely, and if not you, then probably someone else.

I think the issue goes deeper into society, alienation that many feel, etc. I do not think "blaming" a cam performer is accurate.

But, you also cannot claim 0% responsibility any more than the bartender that servers the drunk who drives out and kills someone. There are known consequences in bar tending.

Perhaps less so in cam-ing.

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#34 [url]

Dec 9 09 2:07 AM

Common sense leaves when one meets someone who is particularly good at relieving you of it.

...and if you continually frequent the bad part of town, you're evenually going to get fleeced.

That's a generalization not meant to be correlated with MJ's Mr.9 hours, but with the industry as a whole. How MJ sorts out what's ok and what's not between she and her members, and what she feels is "ethical" is completely up to her as a person. What's right for some of us is not right for others and it's a personal choice.

Understand I'm playing Devil's Advocate when I say, "You can't really compare a bartender's responsibility to the law with a performer's responsibility to a member who manages their finances poorly." If you think so, we're edging back into "friend territory" which I think we've covered pretty thoroughly in other threads.

A member visits a cam site for a service... the majority of the time. Part of that service has become a parady of emotional interation and it sells well. If they've got the cash, a performer provides the service. Supply and demand. The girls (and guys) are selling a product that is very much in demand and that product is not only sex. This is how it is. Different sites and different performers operate differently, but the bottom line is right here.

This is a business. The performers are at work. They take a lot of shit. They give a lot of shit too, but also give quite a bit more of themselves in the process. Performers may disagree if they like, but the psychological implications of sex work are well documented. For the majority of people, those implications are negative for both performers and members. I'm with you on the long-term repurcussions Unc. Even so, the performers are there to make money. Not counsel members...unless they pay for it.

I understand that this sounds pretty harsh, but it IS the high-level view. The closer you get, the more gray things become and it's not by accident. If we understand these things before we walk into the red-light district, we might be able to effect some positive change over the things there that we CAN control without getting caught in a boobie trap. (pun intended) We've got to see how things really are though first, and accept the parameters we're working in, before we have any chance making a difference in someone's life who works in this industry. Unless you've been on the other side of the camera, it's difficult to understand the thought process and perspective that goes along with it.

So if I'm a performer and this is my job, how do deal with a member who's become too emotionally attached? That's a tuff call. I'm here to make money and I don't want to hurt my bottom line. If Joe member knows the rules and has read the warnings, yet has developed a case of immediate intimacy anyway, why should I try to correct them when it will cost me money? They should have known better in the first place. It's a porn site after all and I'm not a baby sitter.

I've said too much.

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#35 [url]

Dec 9 09 3:35 AM

Well put Breeze

When it comes to the ethics of cash who is responsible for the other.

Cash will make a persons ethics fly out the window and responsibilty can be put else where.

To bad the whole mentality of who is right and who is wrong lies on what side of the monitor you may be be on. Or where one may be in the food chain.
Sad but true and it goes round and round.

In the end who benifits. Not many!

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#36 [url]

Dec 9 09 7:28 AM

Cool Breeze hit the nail on the head.

[I understand that this sounds pretty harsh, but it IS the high-level view. The closer you get, the more gray things become and it's not by accident. If we understand these things before we walk into the red-light district, we might be able to effect some positive change over the things there that we CAN control without getting caught in a boobie trap. (pun intended) We've got to see how things really are though first, and accept the parameters we're working in, before we have any chance making a difference in someone's life who works in this industry. Unless you've been on the other side of the camera, it's difficult to understand the thought process and perspective that goes along with it.
]

And for members who become addicted to the play, maybe they should read the fine print when they sign up at porn sites.

That you understand that when you gain access to this site, you will be exposed to visual images, verbal descriptions and audio sounds of a sexually oriented, frankly erotic nature, which may include graphic visual depictions and descriptions of nudity and sexual activity. You are voluntarily choosing to do so, because you want to view, read and/or hear the various materials which are available, for your own personal enjoyment, information and/or education. Your choice is a manifestation of your interest in sexual matters which, you believe, is both healthy and normal and which, in your experience, is generally shared by average adults in your community.

Neither are models responsible for how much a client chooses to spend on them.. same a Casino isn't responsible for a person who plays poker machines all day ....

there both there for entertainment purposes.

So good luck to the average model from Eastern Europe who's client from the rich Western countrys falls for her and spends a pretty penny or two on his delusion.. Once he wakes up from his fantasy world. He should be thankful he's from a country where he has so much more opportunity to earn so many more dollars than these girls will see in their cam career

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#37 [url]

Dec 9 09 4:03 PM

When essential circulatory bloodflow is diverted from conventional neurological activity to phallic neurological activity, I'm waiting for the moment where the following model*-member exchange take place in free/public chat:

___________________________________________________________________

Member: .... bb,mmmmmm, ys take off that shirt

Model: ys bb, cum in, cum take me pvt... i canot help anymore my feel

Member: bb.. yes im rdy too.. but plz hold on. I need to click on your terms. plz b patient...k?? muah muah

Model: bb, my term is over, i m vacation time now near crismas Dun worry, k?? . Cum in bb, i have now much time 4u.

Member: bb... no hihihihihihi..... dunt worry, i will read ur company terms & condtions n then, i also need to read othr site for some model guide-to-how-to-treat-members booklet 1st apparently, n cum bk to u k?

Model: ok bb, ;( ...... muah muahback.... plz cumback fast, i missing u xxxxx


(40mins later)


Model: ??? bb... u there?????????????????????

Member: No.
___________________________________________________________________

* OK ... so I made her East Eu/North Eu./Asian/S.American .... shoot me.



Seeing as its now highlighted again in this thread - I hope some (or more) folks reading this site will take heed - and read enough to fully appreciate that: ........ if you f*ck p your disposable income on camsites, it is only your fault and only you are to blame.
Nobody else.

I suppose to get the message across, the next step is for CGN to 'infiltrate' the top10 camsites with a pop-up window that wont close till you click on the CGN homepage link within the window. cool.gif
Guerrilla marketing at its best.


PS: Good thread and equally good contributions.

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#38 [url]

Dec 9 09 7:52 PM

lol Yeah I agree Picasso good thread.

Ahhh Facile always good to hear and debate others opinions and thoughts.
Interesting choice of nickname.
While there are many pros and cons, no pun intended, to both sides. Let me say I do feel empathy for both sides.
Facile, sounds like you are well versed in Imlives contractual guest agreement. As you have quoted from the contract.
So, to play devils advocate, Facile you must also know of the hosts contractual agreement with the sites. Also the practices the host are trained in and encouraged to use in their daily work.
If not, you can familiarize yourself with them here.
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1200 and here
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showforum=31
As the websites know that to get inside a members head is to bring in more cash. To train and help the hosts promote this is to their benefit and thru the contractual agreement the websites have absolved themselves of all responsibility. Do they promote this on the up and up? Or are fraudulent lies and stories used on the members as promotional tactics.
Just another play on the 419 Nigerian scam, Russian bride scams and many others. As the sites lawyers and any other honest lawyer will tell you, to prove relationship fraud is next to impossible unless documentation can be provided. Even then it is just a relationship turned sour. Sorry about your luck.
Sure all come to the sites looking for sexual relief, how many know what it is they are in for. Not many I would imagine.
So where does responsibility lie. With the host. With the member. With the websites, their agreements explain the sexual end of the industry, but where in the agreement does it state the hosts are trained and encouraged to manipulate a member to optimize the bottom line.
The websites have themselves covered in the agreement with the hosts, whereby they state contact is not to be made outside of the website.
Do hosts stray from their contractual agreement? If so, why is it the hosts will give out their e-mail addys, their IM addresses and set themselves up to have numerous addresses at various providers.
Seems odd, when it is against their contractual agreement with their employer.
If a host chooses this path, to connect with a member outside of the site, then where does the responsibility lie? If the only contact is thru the site, the member. If contact is initiated off site by the host. The host. Or by the websites for turning a blind eye as their monetary requirements are being met.
And it goes round and round, looking forward to your thoughts Facile and perhaps Odessum could shed some light on this side of the industry also.

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#39 [url]

Dec 9 09 9:19 PM

QUOTE
Do hosts stray from their contractual agreement? If so, why is it the hosts will give out their e-mail addys, their IM addresses and set themselves up to have numerous addresses at various providers.


Yes some hosts stray, but its not always done with the intention of scamming the member.. Personally I believe giving out a IM address does more harm then good for a model. Unless youre intending to use it to 'scam' the member or collect payments off site, it can hurt your bottom line.

So why give it out if youre not going to do either of those things? Because it goes back to what I said about keeping the fantasy alive. If you meant all those things you said, then you would want to give me your yahoo.

A lot of times members ask for it when they hit that certain point. Where the doubts start creeping in, (or as some of you might call it their common sense). So its sorta like a test. A test to see how sincere the model is. If its really all about the money... So as a model the best thing you can do is hide behind the 'the site wont allow me to give it out' line. Its the safest bet. If you do give it out though one of two things will happen.

One-The member will be satified that you 'passed the test'. whether or not you actually communicate with him on it, he will use it to balance out his doubts. Perhaps even spend more, because now hes convinced himself there is something real. He has a yahoo id as proof. Something the model gave him even though she can get in trouble for it. They now have a stronger connection. Hes more important then the other visitors because he knows her 'personally' now.

Two- the member will totally cut off all spending. Will attempt to contact you on your IM constanantly. Because if you were really enjoying their company then you would want it too. And when you dont.. its over. Youve lost the client.

So its a 50/50 shot. Giving a IM address can help in some situations, in other ones it hurts you.

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#40 [url]

Dec 10 09 6:57 PM

cool.gif Thanks again, MissJane.. well said, clearly argued.. and in the end, brutally candid....
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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