#41 [url]

Dec 11 09 10:16 AM

Ahhh Tben ... it’s not just Imlive who use this members contract. That i quoted, try Streamray amongst others who have exactly the same wording.

I understand Tben where you coming from, I’m not here to make moral judgments or debate the ethics of this business Caveat Emptor!!

It seems some members here have had their mouth too close to the honey pot and have been stung by a queen bee

This is a legal business, ( in most countries) and the cam sites and models will market and sell their product to the market within the restraints of local laws.
To entice customers to spend more on their product. .. Just as the Tobacco companies have to market to a particular demographic to keep their profits rolling in....
So the model to be productive have to make her room welcoming, just like any other establishment, Fast Food out lets use colour to stimulate appetite, , other establishments use different scents in the air, soothing music below 60beats a minute to influence people subconsciously to stay longer in stores so there is more chance to for customers to part with money. No there isn’t a sign at the door telling you this.... Marketing strategies are behind closed doors, ... it’s all smoke and mirrors to make the customer feel good about them self’s. I liken the modes to used car sales people..... sometimes ur going to get un- scrupleless people in the business, and you get taken for a ride.....

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#42 [url]

Dec 11 09 11:56 AM

Then again there is also caveat venditor, Facile.

What I do find laughable is that some compare this industry to reputable, responsible legal conforming business and corporations. And use reference comparing them as such.
Sure the business model is such. But the practice and implimatation is another story?
As a lawyer will tell you good faith is not introduced by fraudulent lies for one's own gain. Yeah you can debate this, it happens all the time. Then again that is what a just court system is for.


Well my aussie chef friend, as I said before ones opinion in this industry is reflected by which side of the monitor they are on and location etc etc.

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#43 [url]

Dec 11 09 1:31 PM

QUOTE
What I do find laughable is that some compare this industry to reputable, responsible legal conforming business and corporations. And use reference comparing them as such.


I would agree (in the sense you mean it) if they were all just trying to present it that way. It's the fact that many actually believe it and see it that way that speaks directly to the root of the debate. When I said recently that not all of us have blinders on, it implied that many people do. I was not only referring to members.

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#44 [url]

Dec 12 09 2:04 AM

Tben Of coarse its laughable, because you don't have blinkers on. You're informed as most of us here are....

Breeze is correct in saying that the Operators of these site , do believe it’s a legitimate business, they pay taxes ).
But were getting away from the topic of what happens when a member is taken for a ride ,through lies, to milk him from his money.

The money isn't in the guy having a quick 5-10 minutes pvt, it’s the guys who are led down the garden path..... What recourse does he have... well none at the moment...... Until someone is brave enough to take on these Porn Giants in a court of law like they did with the tobacco companies, which now have restriction on how they sell their product with warning labels.
I would argue the biggest legal problem with these operators are the Obscenity laws. Where it’s ok to put 4 fingers in , but not your fist, where it’s ok to use a toy up your date but can’t use vegetables... where do i go if i have a vegetable fetish?))...
Unfortunately, it’s usually the person with the most monies wins, but not always!!
So it’s really up to the models own conscience of how far they go with a member.

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#46 [url]

Dec 19 09 11:59 AM

Facile


Good points on this industry being of sound legal business models. Then again in the past many industries started out that way. Until the powers that be saw poor business practices being used at the expense of others for ones own profit. With that regulation begins and beats down those practicing in this fashion.
Sure it may take some time and a network of lawyers through out North America, France, Netherlands, Cypress, Romania, the Ukraine etc etc. It would also take documentation sound positive proof of any wrong doings.
When regulation starts rolling in it will be those on the front lines, the hosts that will be left fending for themselves as the websites have their asses covered.
Giants?? The bank accounts may be "giant". But to get there, morals and ethics are left in the dust. Does this make them "giants" or exploitative, using societies downfall for their own personal gain?
So, if someone may have been stung by the "queen bee" should they not have recourse to take action?
All things to be looked at when someone has become to attached.

[/QUOTE]Breeze is correct in saying that the Operators of these site , do believe it’s a legitimate business, they pay taxes ).
But were getting away from the topic of what happens when a member is taken for a ride ,through lies, to milk him from his money.

Well Facile, looking at all angles, not judging or passing judgment.
Always a pleasure to hear others views from both sides. What will the future bring here in cyberia, the wild west? It remains to be seen as of yet, but time will tell.

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tealoneal

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#47 [url]

Dec 20 09 7:36 AM

I'm a little late here but I disagree with some of what is being said in this thread. In particular I disagree with the analogy to alcohol and cigarettes. If we drink and drive then somebody may die. If we smoke then we may die. We are not going to die from falling for a host. We might spend too much money. We might end up broken hearted and bitter. We won't die.

I think a better analogy might be automobiles. When we buy a vehicle we are buying far more than a means of transportation. We are buying the image or fantasy that has been sold to us by automobile marketers. We don't expect dealers to convince us to buy a cheap four cylinder vehicle when we asked for a shiny sports car. We know they are going to try to sell us cool looking, overpriced bit of luxury with metallic paint, leather seat covers and oversize tires. Why do we expect chat hosts to demonstrate more awareness and caring than multi-billion dollar corporations? Why should we expect chat sites to provide warning labels when we don't expect them from all of the other companies that are trying to entice us to part with our money?

These are fantasy sites and we expect the hosts to fulfill our fantasy. Our fantasy may be sexual or it may be to feel more interesting, or attractive, or desirable. If hosts fail to fulfill the role we assign to them then we will take our business elsewhere and may even give them a bad review. Hosts aren't counselors and they aren't responsible for our emotional or financial wellbeing. If they lie to us then they should be ashamed. If they don't lie but we still forget the line between fantasy and reality then it is our own fault.

I think sites like CGN are needed to warn hosts and members about the dangers of this business. Forums at the sites are another good place and there is no shortage of frank discussion there. I think it is too much to expect the hosts themselves or the sites to accept responsibility for mistakes that members may make.

If, as I've said all along, the universe is — at any time — what you say it is ... then say! - James Burke
I miss Markland

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#48 [url]

Dec 20 09 12:33 PM

Tben

When it’s about sex and payment , some one is being exploited, either performer or customer or both.. Happens in Real time prostitution too.

Yep! It make the Giants of the porn world are exploitive.
It’s possible that one day there may be a cooperative as there is in most countries for real time sex workers, were in some communities there is regulation where they conduct the business and have a support net work to be represented in society.
For the bees stings, in other areas of society they have consumer affairs, unfortunately in cyber there isn’t much recourse apart from becoming a pirate.. Although id conclude that the people with this disposition of being stung wouldn’t be the kind to board Onan ‘s Ship
Regulation in industries usually takes away some of the unscrupulous people, …
When people talk about justice and fairness they don’t always realize it mostly the ones with money that win….. (Yes Trainer its arrogance) but its reality. Money and power have influence, not just in MFC.

Tealoneal…… im talking about how Tobacco companies market the product , not if they kill you , Porn is market in the same way as tobacco.
Tobacco products in the west have more regulation, of where they sell, market and can use the product. Tobacco reached saturation point in the 1980’s in the west. Now they push the product in 3rd world countries where they make far more money than in the West.
So in a few years Tealoneal when broadband network reaches the foot hills of Bhutan, you can ask a poor girl who dosen't have many opptunties to hang herself with a pray flag while she climaxes on her last breath , because that’s your fantasy.......
So where does it end , when will porn reach its saturation in society? Ask Deputy Attorney General to Obama, David Ogden!!!
Or those of you who like a bit of comic relief have a look at Ben Elton’s book ……Blind Faith

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#49 [url]

Dec 20 09 3:16 PM

Correct facile.

This job for these women is as simple as this:

To provide an entertaining fantasy service involving sexual acts and graphic images to tease, excite and cause a potential client to purchase time so both parties can masturbate together or provide an illusion of sexual gratification.

It is not the act or acts, but what is most important is how one goes about it.

From the websites to the studios to the models, other variables DO come into play.

I can surely say that if this industry was not such a lucrative way of earning money we would not have this discussion or many threads here. If all models followed Odessum's business model and strict rules the models would make enough money as he says to be content.

But many of these websites have other features and free chat that makes the goal for a woman to get a potential client into a private or spend their tokens or credits much harder in some ways(free chat sites) or much easier(non free chat sites). You add in the constant barrage of beggers and the frustration of not earning money and it leads quite a few to employ other ways to earn a buck.

For some to get a client closer or become more intimately knowledgeable about each other leads to a connection of sorts. This then makes it more of a relationship. Which now makes it easier or more opportunistic for a person to fool, defraud or cheat an unsuspecting person with friendship, love and sex. Which then can lead to an addiction which brings a person to return day after day to continue a warped relationship. It occurs in real life situations as well.

So if you expect a relationship, your setting yourselves up to get hurt and fooled. The only real honest way to be friends or find happiness in a real sense is not to expect you will find your love of your life on these sites and that you can EARN that relationship by paying for it. Once that is done, all respect is lost.

These women are there to make and earn MONEY. Not to find a man, or a boyfriend or a husband. But yes, when a person is so greedy or desperate they will attempt any methods to lighten another persons pockets.

I can not tell you how many women have told me they have done that. Just re-read Andreea's first posts about love on this forum. Many models laugh and feel sad that men think they can buy a girlfriend or whatever. Isn't that warped and sick when you look at it? But then if that is the delusional view a member enters this cyberia with then what can a model do about it?Play the game unless their consciences get the better of them. Or they can:

Tell this potential "bank" to go away?(loses earnings)

Be honest with them?(lose of earnings too)

Or the easier way, to simply let these people enjoy that fantasy.(bingo)

But then that makes things so much more complicated and complex.

It is about a business where there is no moral or ethical rules. Where anyone can do anything they wish for money. That in itself, is a path for all bad things to occur for all involved.

Until the games ends, and until a woman has enough of this it will continue on and on. A fool and his money are soon parted.

If this was similar to the business model used in prostitution, then it would be wham bam thank you ma'am. No time for relationships other than to fulfill the business part of it.

Until the opportunity and chance for a real relationship possibility is removed, people will use that very aspect of human frailty to make a buck.

So once again, to all of you here, re-read the typology of a client/model thread and the handbooks used as a template to "hook a client".

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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tealoneal

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Posts: 83

#50 [url]

Dec 20 09 6:46 PM

QUOTE
Tealoneal…… im talking about how Tobacco companies market the product , not if they kill you , Porn is market in the same way as tobacco.

Tobacco products in the west have more regulation, of where they sell, market and can use the product. Tobacco reached saturation point in the 1980’s in the west. Now they push the product in 3rd world countries where they make far more money than in the West.


Facile, so are cars and soft drinks. Marketing often appeals to our emotions.

QUOTE
So in a few years Tealoneal when broadband network reaches the foot hills of Bhutan, you can ask a poor girl who dosen't have many opptunties to hang herself with a pray flag while she climaxes on her last breath , because that’s your fantasy.......


This is a slippery slope argument taken to the worst extreme. Moreover, I think it misses the point. Most of these hosts are actors. They aren't really climaxing for us and they aren't swept off their feet by our good looks and sweet talk. They are putting on a show.

What you are talking about is the cam equivalent of a snuff film and, to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a case of a murder being recorded purely for entertainment purposes. If some idiot really did ask a girl to commit suicide on cam I suspect the cam site would close his account and may take further action.

BTW, American film simulates death on an ongoing basis. Nobody seems to think that is going to lead to snuff films but people will seriously subscribe to the bizarre assertion that simulated orgasms will.


QUOTE
So where does it end , when will porn reach its saturation in society? Ask Deputy Attorney General to Obama, David Ogden!!!
Or those of you who like a bit of comic relief have a look at Ben Elton’s book ……Blind Faith


In the 70s and 80s the same questions were being asked. Porn was going to so corrupt young men's minds that they would be unable to control their primitive male urges and become rapists. What happened? Porn became mainstream.Young women are concerned that young men are LESS interested in normal sex with real women. (It may be that the cosmetic and fashion industry play a role here too).


I do think there are dangers at these cam sites but those dangers are emotional and financial. The dangers need to be discussed rationally without finger pointing, inappropriate analogies and bizarre predictions. In other words, lets stay grounded in reality.

QUOTE
It is about a business where there is no moral or ethical rules. Where anyone can do anything they wish for money. That in itself, is a path for all bad things to occur for all involved.


Trainer, I appreciate your many posts but this is what I am talking about. What is your proof that this business has fewer moral or ethical rules than others?

If, as I've said all along, the universe is — at any time — what you say it is ... then say! - James Burke
I miss Markland

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#51 [url]

Dec 20 09 7:05 PM

Hmmm well I agree with everything Trainer said except the opening line

QUOTE
This job for these women is as simple as this:

To provide an entertaining fantasy service involving sexual acts and graphic images to tease, excite and cause a potential client to purchase time so both parties can masturbate together or provide an illusion of sexual gratification.


Thats not true. Thats wy certain sites have 'friendship' catagories. As tealoneal said

QUOTE
These are fantasy sites and we expect the hosts to fulfill our fantasy
.

Every one has different fantasies. Some want just the sexual gratifications other are seeking companionship.

I as a chat host offer paid companionship. And thats where many of the issues lie. Its not friendship its paid companionship. Theres a very big difference.



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#52 [url]

Dec 20 09 7:38 PM

Ah nice point Teal, but I point you to why there is a justice system or courts or lawyers.

In the normal business world if you cheat, lie, steal, and if you get caught your brought up on various charges. There are laws against ponzi schemes, illegal transactions, safety precautions etc etc.

Even between regular everyday Joes and Janes(excuse me, Miss Jane,)they can be sued for fraud, embezzlement, etc etc....

Without rules and regulations or business ethics and morals which there are laws for the average person as well, there would be nothing for society or people to contain themselves. Anyone could do whatever they wish with no repercussions.

Well pardon me, Miss Jane, Is it normal for a person to pay for companionship? Unless I am an invalid or unable to take care of myself then I suppose I would need companionship. But like I said, people will pay for whatever they feel they need and wish for.

Once again, cyber friendship is a paid business as well. I have many friends whom are not cyber cam models. And yes that point you brought up IS where we all have issues. We are becoming less socially intimate and becoming hermits in a way because of this business. We are all becoming social misfits changing the way we view what once was the norm. So my question next awaits a patient reply.

Let me ask you a simple question Miss Jane, if the shoe was on the other foot so to say, would you pay for any of this?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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tealoneal

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#53 [url]

Dec 20 09 8:46 PM

QUOTE (TRAINER @ December 20, 2009 07:38 pm)
Ah nice point Teal, but I point you to why there is a justice system or courts or lawyers.

In the normal business world if you cheat, lie, steal, and if you get caught your brought up on various charges. There are laws against ponzi schemes, illegal transactions, safety precautions etc etc.

Even between regular everyday Joes and Janes(excuse me, Miss Jane,)they can be sued for fraud, embezzlement, etc etc....

Without rules and regulations or business ethics and morals which there are laws for the average person as well, there would be nothing for society or people to contain themselves. Anyone could do whatever they wish with no repercussions.

Trainer, thank you for the reply. I am not really convinced that this business is any more or less moral than others.

Lying isn't illegal. When actors play a role on stage or screen they are lying in a sense by portraying themselves as something that they are not. It is exactly what we expect of them. When they fail to lie convincingly we consider them to be poor actors. Aren't we paying cam hosts to do the same? (Perhaps they can take it too far when they tell us that we are their friends or we will meet but that isn't illegal and it isn't really different from how sales people conduct themselves in the business world).

Contract law comes into play when one party cheats by failing to deliver the agreed upon service or product. Most sites have a mechanism for members to get their money back if a chat host fails to do what she said she would. If anything, sites may be a little too eager to take the member's side in disputes. There is very little recourse for hosts when members fail to fulfill their own side of the contract. Charge-backs are common.

I'm not sure what you mean by stealing. Sometimes members commit fraud but how do cam hosts steal? Cam hosts may do unethical things like ask a member for money to pay for a nonexistent medical treatment (the old my Mom has cancer trick) but that isn't stealing. Regardless, the sites take action to prevent that type of behavior because it is bad for business.

I think that there are dangers to people on both sides of the screen but those dangers are better discussed without reference to morality, finger pointing or a need for special regulation. Cam sites are subject to the same rules as other businesses and conduct themselves no differently. The main goal of any special regulation should be to ensure that all models are 18 or older. Beyond that, the exact same rules should apply IMO.

If, as I've said all along, the universe is — at any time — what you say it is ... then say! - James Burke
I miss Markland

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#54 [url]

Dec 20 09 9:24 PM

Your welcome. Ok, if morality can not be used when speaking about this then what would you want to describe some of the methods in which one does use within certain relationships?

Confidence schemes? Corrupt behavior? I think if you remove the very purpose of why they are there which we all agree is for money, then one can eliminate any scams,financially etc that could occur on the sites they work on. But for some, seeing a member who has deep pockets spend and spend on them on the sites, can lead to other motivations. It does occur, Teal. Not where they work though, there are too many eyes on them for the most part, but there are ways around that too.

If lying is not illegal then what is it if I may ask? I am not speaking just in the context of where they work either. It happens away from the work where there is even less authority or supervision.

QUOTE
Cam hosts may do unethical things like ask a member for money to pay for a nonexistent medical treatment (the old my Mom has cancer trick) but that isn't stealing.


Then what do you consider that? Or how can one describe, when a host may manipulate an acquaintance into buying them gifts or pay for this, that, or the other thing.Is that entertainment? Is it part of their jobs or more of a moral and ethical personal thing? It happens more than you may realize. It all leads to the same path, getting a member hooked and developing a more intimate relationship. Have you sat in a chat room and watched how many members ask if a model has a bf? Or how some send gifts as a way to show appreciation. In a way, it is like a courtship that starts in a place where money rules. How many instances I have read where someone gets scammed away from their work environments. I have posted many of these forums and articles where it does occur. Now I sound like I say ALL models are scammers, that I am not saying, but it does occur. Even the pirates mention it elsewhere.

We once mentioned on this forum "Is it the work that corrupts a person or are they corrupt before they work there?" The opportunities are numerous and available.

If these things are not considered immoral than what would you call them? If something IS unethical then is it immoral as well?

unethical
adjective immoral, wrong, improper, illegal, dirty, unfair, shady (informal), dishonest, unscrupulous, under-the-table, unprofessional, disreputable, underhand, unprincipled, dishonourable,




Immoral \Im*mor"al\, adjective [Pref. im- not + moral: cf. F. immoral.] Not moral; inconsistent with rectitude, purity, or good morals; contrary to conscience or the divine law; wicked; unjust; dishonest; vicious; licentious; as, an immoral man; an immoral deed.


Your missing the point, I am not speaking narrowly as it pertains just to their work. It evolves beyond the work and does happen beyond that place of work.

But not all cam models can be placed in that category, but then again, non cam models can employ the same schemes as well.

Why do you think some models do try to attain a members personal email? Or why do they seek a members yahoo nick etc? Is it just for a connection and friendship and love or is there more to it?

Geez, I sound so heartless when writing and reading it, but alas, I have seen it and so have others and some of my friends.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#55 [url]

Dec 20 09 9:55 PM

QUOTE
Well pardon me, Miss Jane, Is it normal for a person to pay for companionship? Unless I am an invalid or unable to take care of myself then I suppose I would need companionship. But like I said, people will pay for whatever they feel they need and wish for.


Well if by normal you mean frequently occurs, is the norm, then yeah, you even said it yourself. People will pay for whatever they feel they need and wish for. Paid companionship is a frequent occurance in this world. Is it normal in the sense of healthy psychological terms? I dont know. Im not a licensed therapist. Common sense tells me its not. That if you were healthy and well adjusted you should be able to form relationships in real life and online that arent paid for. If your only means of socalizing with women is through porn, then yeah- you probably need some help... But if you have a life, if youve had relationships, and youre able to socially interact with people and you choose to once a week instead of spending 60 dollars at the local bar, trying to chat up attractive women and get nowhere from it. Then yeah, whats wrong with staying in on a friday night, spending the same 60 dollars interacting online with a pretty girl for an hour. (which would be apx 40 mins watching her in a free chat enviorment and 20 mins alone time)

People are abusive. People misuse products and services all the time. Its not the products fault, nor is it the responsibitly of the person providing the services to regulate the user.

But I am curious Trainer. How do you see things changing? I mean what would you like to happen? The whole paid companionship angle of it outlawed? Make it only about paid sexual gratifcation and nothing more? In your ideal world would the industry disappear? Be regulated to a point where emotions are limited? Like in a strip club there are very strict rules about look but dont touch. Should cam girls be subjected to similar rules? Where you can have a live show but no interaction?


-
Now would I pay for any of this? lol. Thats a tough one.. Pay for companionship? probably not. Im not socially awkward so I dont know that I would pay for something I can get for free... Pay for entertainment? Sure. I do it all the time. Dont you? I mean everyone does. Yeah there are plenty of things that you can do for entertainment that are free but other things cost money. And its not always better when you pay. Sometimes going to see a live local band play for free at a bar is more fun then you would have spending 100$ for a concert ticket for a big name band. Other times its not..

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tealoneal

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#56 [url]

Dec 20 09 11:11 PM

Trainer, you are talking about the unethical acts of certain individuals. I am arguing that the cam business is no more or less prone to unethical behavior than many (if not most) others. In fact I've attempted to demonstrate that this business self polices more than many.

Miss Jane's exploration of paid companionship seemed about right to me. Short of banning all non-sexual interaction between hosts and members, what can really be done about the complexities of human relationships? Again, I'm suggesting that we need to acknowledge that this is a legal and legitimate business and focus the discussion about the risks to individuals instead of the morality of the business itself.

If, as I've said all along, the universe is — at any time — what you say it is ... then say! - James Burke
I miss Markland

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#57 [url]

Dec 21 09 1:47 AM

Excellent points from both of you , my hats off to you both.

Well for one thing you just stated in your view it is not normal? I doubt it is as well. Your common sense is telling you that. An alternate arguement would be if then these people do have some issue or issues, does allowing them to continue to do what we agree is not normal, continue? Are we enabling someone who does not know better or needs assistance to fall through the cracks so to speak.

Ah of course going to a bar to find a hook up is kind of similar...But then is that a form of entertainment we are paying for or are we attempting to find something or someone real? We both would agree that it is more likely to be more constructive and real than on a website where it for the most part is a fantasy.



QUOTE
But I am curious Trainer. How do you see things changing? I mean what would you like to happen? The whole paid companionship angle of it outlawed? Make it only about paid sexual gratifcation and nothing more? In your ideal world would the industry disappear? Be regulated to a point where emotions are limited? Like in a strip club there are very strict rules about look but dont touch. Should cam girls be subjected to similar rules? Where you can have a live show but no interaction?


It will never be outlawed or disappear, just like prostitution, piracy and sex trafficking. Well it appears from where this cam business started to where it is now, I would have to say regulation would be more useful and helpful to all involved. I am sure that would not go over well with many but after gonzo porn and all types of fetishes have evolved what is next in your opinion? How far do we want to allow things to go?

Live shows with no interaction would be like masturbating to a magazine or video. What makes this so popular is the real human interaction. Alas, at a strip club a stripper would not use toys or masturbate for her customers, there is a noticeable difference there.I think that falls under morality and a cities,state or countries laws. But then they can go home with a customer if they wish as well. The emotional aspect of it is what makes this so dangerous and so powerful for many.

I have seen people that can't remove themselves from the chat and admit that they know better, but the pull back to it is enormous. Would one conclude that that person or persons are addicted or have some form of compulsive abnormal behavior?

Do we turn the other way and not recognize all aspects and issues involved on both sides? That would not be fair or proper. Just as we discuss things from a models perspective it is only fair to talk about the other parties involved as well. It takes two to tango.

Well I agree with you Teal, as I just stated, above in my last paragraph. Not only could it effect a user or visitor but also how many women has it seriously affected as well? Have you read what Uncle Lewis wrote about the first woman he came across on MFC? There in itself is evidence that something went wrong or hurt someone in a negative way.

Everything in life is prone to abuse and improper use. Most people are responsible and have the knowledge and maturity to know when or when not to cross a boundary. But I see the boundaries disappearing lately more and more.

Do we or can we stop another person from doing whatever they wish? I say yes, as a collective group it is within our power to effect change for the better not for the worse. If we did not regulate or have some set of standards we all would be in a heap of trouble. Example as to the recent great recession.
Should we allow people who have no other choice but THIS industry to not to have other choices? Nope. But for many that is the economic choice available for so many. It is time for people to understand that apathy is a poor excuse to say this is their only recourse.
If not for the alternatives ,as hard as they could be,as poor as they are or were or seem, I could certainly say I probably would not exist or be alive today. And to those people who came before me, and worked, and worked hard so I can live more freely, to them I am indebted to. And those are my Parents, whom had it 10x worse than any of these women. (Sorry that was personal but justified in my eyes).For those that are provided with other opportunities, I am sure would make a big difference to more people and to those to come.

Ah Miss Jane, entertainment, we need to ask what is entertainment and what is not entertainment. At this point I can only speak for myself and say this is entertainment I do not enjoy anymore. Why do I say that, simply because I have seen others get hurt from this form of entertainment more than most other forms.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#58 [url]

Dec 21 09 11:21 AM

Interesting discussion!
Guess I am just not getting it though.
How can we compare industries that have been around for decades? Industries that have gone through the growing pains. Industries that have had regulations and laws put in place to protect the average consumer. Industries regulated by government factions.
Perhaps these giants are the same as an industry that is in it's infancy? An industry that makes use of an unregulated space, where it is all for himself and greed will make everything okay.
In time regulations will be put into place. But the websites will have their asses covered by the years of recorded video they have from their sites. If it can't be live? Well we have a vault full of recorded video that we own the rights to. Lets put it on DVD, streaming sites and release it to the public. "Cam Girls Gone Wild" lol
This will keep our cash cow fed.
I'd put money on it, that the biggest pirates of all are still sleeping. One day they will enter the market as they have the rights to do so.
Then again I think I am just not getting it.
Time for the holidays, Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays. Enjoy the time with family and friends.

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#59 [url]

Dec 21 09 11:32 AM


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So in a few years Tealoneal when broadband network reaches the foot hills of Bhutan, you can ask a poor girl who dosen't have many opptunties to hang herself with a pray flag while she climaxes on her last breath , because that’s your fantasy.......

teal, porn is a legal business, , yes all the girls are actors, and it’s just fantasy, sexual and ahh! Companionship… So the model I know put on a death show for her client, because that his fantasy. And yes it’s still posted on the site, in fact it’s the second of such showers that were recorded … she deserves a “Oscar”
I’m grounded Teal ,
So you think the member should have his account closed? Why? It’s just fantasy…. Whats the big deal? Its obvious the cam sites can’t even regulate what’s put up for others to view ….. Teal, why does that leave a bad taste in people’s mouths? It has nothing to do with morality or ethics… it was a business transaction completed where both parties got what they wanted…….. Yes the cam site should have canceled membership, they should have taken down the said video recorded of the event, why ? … because mostly community standards find it “Obscene”… basically it wouldn’t pass the “Miller Test”
I’m sure other people in the “community” would find it obscene if they read the model manuals on how to milk a client because he’s deluded.

So Teal you say that snuff films shouldn’t be posted on cams site, because u find it not so nice, and our Friend trainer finds models who fool, defraud or cheat an unsuspecting person with friendship, love and sex, Not so nice at all…. Now which one cause the most damage?

So people in porn can do what they please, exploit deceive play, fantasize, lie , encourage, have fun, manipulate, drive to bankruptcy, have a wank, tell jokes, just as long as they are not Obscene

Mj wouldn’t tell any of her clients about CGN, because it would hurt her bottom line….. She’s not responsible for them, and she shouldn’t have to be 2…..

Conflict of interest.
So yeah , maybe with all its fun and fantasy, sham and drudgery I can’t see what harm regulation would bring.

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#60 [url]

Dec 21 09 12:55 PM

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Clients who become too attached, What happens when feelings are strong?


For any host that feels their client's feelings have become a little (or lot) too strong, stronger than they're comfortable with any longer? ...Send them to this thread.

Should just about take care of the problem, wouldn't you say?

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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