#81 [url]

Dec 30 09 6:16 AM

Lol, the latter i suppose Uncle.

I do not follow the models manuals to the letter, nor would I make decisions based on the consensus reached in an online forum.

Im just offering up a scenario for those who wish to explore it. (from the models pov only)

Keep in mind most people dont spend hours analyzing and debating inner morals before taking action. You do things instantly based on instincts, what feels right, and usually reflect on it later. If you were dissatified with the results, or later feel guilt or remorse the you would attempt to not repeat it when it presents itself again.

I pulled up my mail, scanned the list and had to decide if i was going to message him or not. Did I? lol. Honestly, I have a few things going on in my personal real life right now and arent going to be 'working' for a few days, so no. I didnt. I didnt message anyone actually cause if im not going to be on, then its a waste.. Its only effective if youre there. Will I message him when i get back to work.. havent decided yet...

It may not be sporting but life isnt always fair. Who looks out for me besides me? Im tired of always getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop. Im not working the next few days, theres no sick pay in camming. No personal days, no vacation time. No work- no pay. You disrupt your schedule you risk losing clients.

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#82 [url]

Dec 30 09 6:33 AM

I couldn't sleep so I perused this thread and saw the last few posts.

Miss Jane, I understand where your coming from, particularly from the models point of view.

I have had models tell me to stop going private or stop visiting them.

Looking back, personally, I should have listened to them. I suspect they had the same conflicts you must deal with, with this customer. Reflecting back, perhaps those women were morally conflicted and emotionally too, and felt we had developed a friendship where it took precedence over business. I respect them for that very much and appreciate to this day, the concern.

So I suppose it is up to each individual to make that decision when it arises. So we see how addiction,human emotions, psychological behavior,morality,ethics and this business all interplay each and everyday.

Perhaps, honesty is the best policy- You could say to them "Look I am involved with someone and am not looking for a relationship" or " I enjoy your company and the time we spend together but I need to tell you this is my job".

Either you will lose that business or they will understand and still return, but at least you gave them the choice up front.

Good luck with that client.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#83 [url]

Dec 30 09 10:32 AM

[/QUOTE]Keep in mind most people dont spend hours analyzing and debating inner morals before taking action. You do things instantly based on instincts, what feels right, and usually reflect on it later. If you were dissatified with the results, or later feel guilt or remorse the you would attempt to not repeat it when it presents itself again.[QUOTE]

MJ From what I have read here, I think youre a very successful model.
Mr X, is easy money. , but hes never going to spend more than a few grand on you. Because he has trouble getting credit , or he would have been back. And how much dose the site take! Guess you have to decide what hes worth to you in monetary gain .
You could toss a coin, leave it up to chance, if you mail him or not,
I guess there is many Mr Xs out there and there always will be, so I can understand from your POV the dilemma that arise from your work. . and the choice you have to make
Breeze and Trainers suggestion of how to handle client are very Noble. Or you could shatter his illusions with a hardcore sex show and tell him how much u love gangbangs with big black men.

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#84 [url]

Dec 30 09 1:04 PM

Well MissJane thanks for sharing a Model's Point of View....
And I guess you have reasons enough not to "suffer fools gladly..."
Or for that matter, "Ducks" as well...
UL

QUOTE (MissJane @ December 30, 2009 01:05 pm)
Every model is there for the money. You don't believe it? Sign yourself up as a male performer on of the many available sites there and try it out. See how much fun it really is dealing with the beggars and the harassment. Being objectified and having to answer personal and degrading questions with a smile on. (how big is your cock, what does your cum taste like, do you like it in the ass, oh youre blushing now so i know you do bb)

No one is there to genuinely make friends. If you want to make friends you dont submit your id and log on to a site where people are paying to interact with you!!

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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tealoneal

Chatter Box !

Posts: 83

#85 [url]

Dec 30 09 1:56 PM

QUOTE (MissJane @ December 29, 2009 09:50 pm)

Now he pops up on my list as a desirable member, according to the site. One that I am suppose to encourage to come back. Im suppose to write him an email, since its been a week and he hasnt been on. Telling him how much I miss spending time with him, reminding him of my schedule, perhaps attaching a few pics. Anything to get him to come back on.

So now its up to me. Do I want to exploit a guy who I know is weak. Call it survival of the fittest. If he cant manage his money- not my problem... Its just a job no?

Or do I let him go. Take pity on him and not lure him back in because its the moral thing to do. The only compensation I get from that is the warm fuzzy feeling from knowing it was the right thing to do. But warm and fuzzy isnt really the same as forced hot air from my furnace now is it? And its cold outside....


Interesting ethical dilemma MissJane. The business model for the site is the same as any other business - do some marketing and get those dollars. No retailer or automotive dealer is going to look out for Mr. X's wellbeing. They'll take his money as long as he has access to credit. Banks and credit card companies will extend credit as long as it remains profitable for them. If he gets into trouble and misses a few payments, then they will impose penalties and high interest rates to increase their profits. It isn't surprising that a cam site is just as eager to separate him from his dollars.

There is a difference I suppose, but a difference only in the emotional appeal of the product. A credit card company or retailer will encourage consumers to believe that spending money on certain products will make them happy (or happier). You are expected to appeal to members' need for human companionship by telling them that you miss spending time with them. Some may jump to the conclusion that your interest in them extends beyond the dollars and the site.

QUOTE (MissJane @ December 29, 2009 09:50 pm)
Do I want to exploit a guy who I know is weak.


Is he really particularly weak? People have difficulty living within a budget all the time. This is particularly true for young people.

QUOTE (UncleLewis from MissJane @ December 30 @ 2009 01:05 pm)
No one is there to genuinely make friends. If you want to make friends you dont submit your id and log on to a site where people are paying to interact with you!!


I suppose not, but few of us go to work to make friends - we take a job for the money. Friendships may develop but that is not the primary focus.

Salespeople pretend to be friends with their customers all the time. It is particularly common in business relationships where the buyer is spending a lot of money on behalf of a commercial organization. The sales rep may talk about the friendship and the relationship that has developed. He or she may even use emotional appeals or imply that the buyer has an ethical obligation to provide ongoing business. When the buyer ceases to be profitable, the so-called friendship and relationship will likely disappear. Not always - people are people and sometimes they are genuine - but I doubt that many business friendships outlast the business relationship.

Is it fair game to play with people's hearts for profit? I dunno. Businesses appeal to emotions all the time and call it marketing. Perhaps camming is a special case because the emotion involved may be love.

If, as I've said all along, the universe is at any time what you say it is ... then say! - James Burke
I miss Markland

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#86 [url]

Dec 30 09 2:22 PM

Guys, please remember the old Tina Turner Song.."What's love? What's love? Got to do.. Got to do with it??"

90% of the time it's about clients who come online to assume a "command position" and then direct a hardcore porn show for their viewing pleasure and a little "hand relief.".. So really, Guys, what's all that solitary stroking and those lonely orgasms got to do with "true romance??"

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#87 [url]

Dec 30 09 3:13 PM

And the other 10%....... some may be looking to be dominated or submit to the whims of a model as well.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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tealoneal

Chatter Box !

Posts: 83

#88 [url]

Dec 30 09 3:29 PM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ December 30, 2009 02:22 pm)
  Guys, please remember the old Tina Turner Song.."What's love, What's love got to do with it.." 

90% of the time it's about clients who come online to assume a "command position" and then direct a hardcore porn show...

UL

Uncle, do you believe that love has nothing to do with it? I suppose you could call it lust, or a crush or something else but the manual you linked clearly stated that the big money is in getting members to fall in love. I see it as a much more important ethical issue than a simple porn show. (Insofar as safety is observed. The dignity of the participants is an entirely separate debate).

By 90% of the time, do you mean than hosts spend 90% of their time in privates performing hard core shows or that 90% of the clients want to direct a hardcore porn show? Aren't the longer sessions less about sex and more about interpersonal relationships?

I suppose I disagree with you. There is a lot more going on at the sites than just simulated physical sex. "I miss you" implies something deeper than the desire to participate in a hardcore porn show. Love, marriage and relationships are even discussed in forums at the sites themselves. Whether or not there is an ethical imperative for hosts to make sure that members do not fall in love/lust/crush is debatable but I don't think the existence of love in the minds of some members is really in doubt.

If, as I've said all along, the universe is at any time what you say it is ... then say! - James Burke
I miss Markland

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#89 [url]

Dec 30 09 3:52 PM

Teanoneal.. I think that once upon a time - four years ago to be exact - this industry was often about encounters with pretty "live-chat hostesses" who were in Sweet October's words "online Geisha girls.." Where the interactions were - to quote Just_Me - about "80% chat and 20% skin.." and not too much skin at that... But now we are dealing with online version of the "industrial vagina.." and an ASSembly line for masturbation where most of the verbal exchanges amount to a form of authorized sexual harassment..

Listen to this exchange between two of our Romanian model members - Sweet October and Just_Me, from the Fall of 2006, and ask yourself what has changed? Well for one thing, neither of them could stand working on a public cam site, and have left the industry.

This is how Sweet October described the industry in the early days of this forum:

QUOTE (SweetOctober @ October 23, 2006 08:55 pm)

just great:p
"The perfect job from hell" is a little too desperate a description in my opinion... To succeed here.. i think that you must be one of two types of girl.. The ones with brains.. that can do anything with words.. and the ones with the big dildo in their (****)..
The First type must have strong nerves...and second ones.. are maybe tramps.. or maybe have no economic alternative except to work in this industry.. But i would not do all that my members ask me to do - not even for a 10.000 minute show.. I guess some girls have no price - and some have low prices.. too low..
What do u say?

And this is what Just_Me replied to her:
QUOTE (just_me @ November 05, 2006 11:22 am)
U are so right, Sweet October..

Just tonight I spoke with one of my members who was telling me about a girl who did camming so differently from myself. She's a Russian. She stays in a towel so that she can get naked faster, and her private shows last only 3 minutes but where she can still "do everything." That's her confession to him..
And i m sure she's just one of so many like her..

I'm not in a position to blame her or say that I know better.. but the fact is I can't understand it. I mean there are many cam-girls who don' t even know English. But rather that do the same routine 100 times a day.. it's better to learn some English and stop acting like a ***** . It's hard to believe someone could enjoy doing that so many times a day, and on command?

Real cam-girls can have a nice conversation, attract someone without showing any nudity, can be charming, are not vulgar, and do not get naked in a second just because someone spends a dollar on them..But the problem is that I don't see many of them left..


So already not many left on MFC as of Fall 2006.. But that was then and this is now.

On F4F, LJ, MFC or PF, there are very few girls who can get away with doing mainly live chat and using their brains to work on their customers imaginations and rather than working their ass to harden their "dicks." As the Romanian models commented on the AdultVideoChat forum, all their customers want is "hard-core porn," not "philosophy.."

Well I can testify that once upon a time there were rooms on MFC or PF where philosophy or politics were very much on the agenda and even the sexual banter was kept light and funny - more like an episode of "Cheers" than the hard "cyber-banging" that one sees today.. But as a member told one of our model members, SkyPrincesza, early in 2007: "You're not here to make 'small talk.' You are here to fuck yourself..." To which she responded; "Hmmm.. Good to know."
That's the kind of thing that MissJane was talking about here:

QUOTE (MissJane @ December 30, 2009 01:05 pm)
Sign yourself up as a male performer ....and try it out. See how much fun it really is dealing with the beggars and the harassment. Being objectified and having to answer personal and degrading questions with a smile on....


I believe that all of this represents a big shift towards a more "industrial" model of sex commerce that is much more impersonal and which leaves much less room for a model to express her own distinct personality or her smarts.
Our Ukrainian model member, Delfina, summed up the changes she saw on her old cam-site, PF, this way in September 2008.

QUOTE (Delfina @ September 24, 2008 08:42 pm)
PF was always one of the most expensive sites and customers always were complaining that on other sites prices are most cheaper. But still, they were going privates - why? I think the reason is that PF was kind of a 'classy' site, if you can use such word for porn site. I mean that most of girls got privates not just from spreading their legs etc, but also from just nice talk. Also most of girls didnt act 'cheap' - like flashing everything what they can flash, getting nude in free etc.
And what do you see now? Actually you can see everything))) Looks like models made a contest - who will show more in public and who will be more naked. But the biggest surprise for me was seeing new models with nicknames like 'HotSlut', 'HairyP***y' etc etc.... That's really sad


One can only wonder what Delfina would make of the nicks that one commonly sees on MyFreeCams these days - nicks that are more like generic product labels than actual names - such as Blonde4Fuk, HotTeenCunt, FuckMyASS09, 2PussySluts, XTastySquirt, Thirsty4Cum, WhoreSlut, etc. etc. ???

So does it come as any surprise given these kinds of routinized performances that the emotional relations between clients and models have also become more brutal and "cut-throat"? Indeed the tone of the exchanges that occur in the "cam world" reminds me of the English Philosopher, Thomas Hobbes' description of life in the "State of Nature;" that is, "brutish, nasty and short..."

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#90 [url]

Dec 30 09 9:57 PM

Sure, but there's certainly more than one demographic within the member population of every site. SweetOctober's opinion that there are two types of girls who can make it in this industry rings pretty true to me. And targeting the money for the girl with brains will be different than targeting the money for the girl who can "do it all" in 3 minutes. It's the girl with brains that's dangerous. While humorous, Facile's alternative for dealing with Mr. 9 hours is plausible and that's a fuck of a lot of power. There are a whole lotta kinds of weak. How many thousand members a month lurch through the room of an established model again? The girl with brains has got to see "marks" everywhere. I did.

Yes, the industry is changing, becoming more gonzo for the masses, but if I'm a performer, I'm going to do what works for me. Which means working smart, not hard. Because yeah... who's looking out for me but me? So...

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#91 [url]

Dec 30 09 11:59 PM

Excellent viewpoints from all.

I think both Uncle and Cool Breeze are on target. What works for one does not necessarily work for another host.

There are models that may not have a good command of the English language which hampers their ability to use charm or their wit to conduct the business at hand. For them, they might resort to what some may call the "slutty" method to gain earnings. They may be quite intelligent and charming but can not voice their mind to visitors.

I have also seen where models are English speakers and just enjoy being quite the exhibitionists to put it lightly.

And then there are those that can charm the pants off a visitor and use their womanly charms to keep people interested and returning for more and more. I consider these hosts "professional" hosts and can be huge earners. But then so can the other types as well, but I tend to think this work still favors the models that provide humor, charm,wit , intelligence with sex appeal and can tease and flirt using their beauty as a weapon.

What I think we are seeing is that the industry must keep re-inventing itself to keep itself from becoming mundane and stale.Just as a model, might have to re-invent themselves as well. A new hair color, or hairstyle, a variety of new lingerie. Or body enhancements, perhaps. If you don't keep it fresh and new, a host can go from the tops of popularity to a has-been quite fast. And quite a few models using the F4F manual as a basis to hone their skills to a point where they can almost get anything they want from a visitor. But once that visitor is hooked, I feel anything can occur.

I thoroughly enjoy when you remind or use posts of others from many years written on this forum by others long gone silent. Wow am I sounding melancholy now.

Maybe the cam industry is reaching its peak or maybe not. Only time and economics will tell.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#92 [url]

Mar 2 10 2:18 PM

Trainer found this post by an MFC Member's outraged girl friend.. Just a reminder that online obession's can have real world consequences that hurt more than the model and client...
UL
Name: Fink
Gender: Male
Age: 25
City: homeless as of now
Country: United States
Sexual Preference: Gay
Drugs: Experimented
Occupation/Major: Cheater and likes to hurt my fuckin' hot girlfriend
About Me: Fuck you Asshole! I thought you loved me and apparently 3 yrs of a relationship is worth some stupid shit-hole whore to have virtual sex with instead of me who's pussy n tits you could touch any God Damn time of the day....you're fucking loss, I can't believe I wasted all this time on you, you dumb FUCK

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#93 [url]

Oct 31 10 4:56 PM

QUOTE (tben)
Once engaged outside of the site, against the contracts they have signed, then what is the purpose.....
......Perhaps for monatery gain, perhaps for their own piece of mind. Their fantasy, to be provided a break from the reality of their daily life and be involved in a life that is more to the norm.


i only have my two ancedotes: and one, at least, seems to be about "their own piece of mind" and an interest in "a life that is more to the norm".....she was the one who suggested our chatting off site and offered the info, and i spent about twenty minutes minutes with her on site teasing and talking with her about it, in the attempt to get a glimmer of the reason for it.....she seemed to appreciate my skeptism, and acknowledged some of her own.....so we decided to let the idea sit between us for a bit.

a couple of days passed, until we eventually both just laughed at our mutual cowardice, and realized we'd never understand "the reason" unless we just did it. (not "did it" as in something sexual....lol....just to be clear)

heh....i'd be lying if i didn't say i had some fantasies cooked up about the whole thing, but i knew them for what they were.....we talked a couple of times, congradulating ourselves on our bravery but the conversations were always short.

she invited me to other sites....(*shrug* sure, why not?)....i visited what i've come to call the glass booth sites as a guest....and told her that i didn't like the feel of them, nor the person that she was on them.

she was quiet for days.....then angry....then hurt....then honest....she feels lost, captivated by a way of life that she finds exciting and shameful at the same time....yep....and judging by the kinds of guys she attracts, that exactly what she's telling them....that kind of vulnerability brings out the worst in some men.

the image that comes to my mind is that she is sinking into some sort of sensual quicksand, and is hoping i'm the guy off to the side holding the branch.

i still have no idea what that branch is supposed to be: i'm not a rescuer....just an older guy looking for the occassional "companionship" that breeze has so clearly outlined.....tho it was likely "the dad" in me that responded to that vulnerabilty from the beginning.

maybe our next conversation will be about that. cool.gif

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#94 [url]

Oct 31 10 5:03 PM

The image what comes to my mind is that she tried to lead you into sites where the minute rate is higher. Maybe I am wrong. But, what's romance for one, is making money for other usually on these sites

�I do not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it�

Voltaire

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#95 [url]

Oct 31 10 7:21 PM

QUOTE (Markland @ October 31, 2010 05:03 pm)
The image what comes to my mind is that she tried to lead you into sites where the minute rate is higher. Maybe I am wrong. But, what's romance for one, is making money for other usually on these sites

hehehe...maybe Markland....there is a justifyable cynicism about the biz and some of the women who work in it.

thing is, i never really spent any money on her to begin with, and we never really talked about the money end of it.....i just said i'd drop in (i do like watchin her work...no denyin that)

but she has a different client base there, and is responsive to it....i didn't care for it.

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#96 [url]

Oct 31 10 7:31 PM

All I can say is, take this lifejacket and watch where you walk.

Figure out and take a really good look at the discussions between both of you.

If you want your heart and groin to rule, your decision.

If you want that other head to rule, once again your decision and choice.

Quick edit, try using all of the above and then call me in the morning.



I spent 15 minutes re-reading the thread before writing this answer to you.

P.S.- Paging camgirl, paging camgirl. Ok paging any camgirl now.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#97 [url]

Oct 31 10 7:57 PM

Listen, no matter how nice this work is, they are working there. I think that guys who are wasting the models time in free chat, are no better than pirates. Maybe even worse - if not to count the pirate issue as an issue about privacy, but as an issue about money, the guys who are downloading the shows would probably not pay a cent anyway - or, the opposite, they will pay anyway. Some girls are posting their own videos in pirate forums for advertising. So, if to forget about privacy, and to talk about money only, it's hard to tell how much harm pirates actually do. But, if you are wasting someone's time in free chat, you surely waste her time and attention.

�I do not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it�

Voltaire

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#98 [url]

Oct 31 10 8:04 PM

QUOTE (TRAINER @ October 31, 2010 07:31 pm)
All I can say is, take this lifejacket and watch where you walk.

Figure out and take a really good look at the discussions between both of you.

If you want your heart and groin to rule, your decision.

If you want that other head to rule, once again your decision and choice.

Quick edit, try using all of the above and then call me in the morning.



I spent 15 minutes re-reading the thread before writing this answer to you.

P.S.- Paging camgirl, paging camgirl. Ok paging any camgirl now.

trainer....lol....all i can say is that my heart and my groin are two different things
it's wierd writing on this site....

human sexuality is a complex bundle of stuff....i get that.....but the foregone conlusion seems to be that unless you explain yourself with ruthless logic, your all mixed up

like being mixed up in the complexity of it all is a bad thing....i don't think it is....maybe because i feel like a guy can write from his mind and his heart

and the little brain can just come along for the ride

lol....maybe being over 60 helps with that

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#99 [url]

Oct 31 10 8:14 PM

QUOTE (Markland @ October 31, 2010 07:57 pm)
Listen, no matter how nice this work is, they are working there. I think that guys who are wasting the models time in free chat, are no better than pirates. Maybe even worse - if not to count the pirate issue as an issue about privacy, but as an issue about money, the guys who are downloading the shows would probably not pay a cent anyway - or, the opposite, they will pay anyway. Some girls are posting their own videos in pirate forums for advertising. So, if to forget about privacy, and to talk about money only, it's hard to tell how much harm pirates actually do. But, if you are wasting someone's time in free chat, you surely waste her time and attention.

i see your point
but you also seem to believe i have the power to "waste" a model's time....how does that work?
it seems to be antithetical to everything that model's say here....those that want to ignore me, ignore me.....those that wonder what kind of money is in it for them....they might play me for awhile to find out....
i just happened to find this one model and brought the story to the forum....i'm not trying to make some new "thesis" about the biz.....if anything, she is the exception that proves the rule, imo......

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#100 [url]

Nov 1 10 12:41 AM

Hmmm... Iltos.

Sensuality,there is nothing wrong with that. In fact that is one of the tools used in a models work.

The logic is fuzzy logic, when it comes to what you are visiting the sites for and then meeting off site.

It appears your looking for something.

Can you figure it out?

But I can relate, she made the first move and asked you. I bet it was flattering and humbling in some respects.

You remind me of a friend I have, an older gentleman around the same age as you.

Lol, of course your heart and your groin are two separate things.

Do you think it is all about sensuality in the real sense of where you are going though?

Many a man has written from his heart and mind, on this forum, on those sites, and away from their work.

Trust me your age means nothing in the overall scheme of things.

It's your heart and mind I am watching......

Well you are an adult, good luck.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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