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Mar 16 10 10:51 PM

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I will be honest I have not read the whole post but I get the feel that it show the model as the victim.



I am model and I am not victim. I have made choice to do this, I have chosen
sell my time and image of my body in sexual way. Viewing us as victims makes us powerless. WE choose when where and who we work. We have the right to say no and set limits. Many of us say no all the time and hold on strongly to our limit. if we don't like some one or they offend us we cam blocked them forever and never have to deal with them again.



cam models are not victims.


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#1 [url]

Mar 17 10 3:37 AM

Agreed, realcamgirl. We are not victims but still ...we are. Victims of money.
And members are our victims, but it's our choice if we do this job and their choice if they want to be our victims.Is an easy job. The only moments when it's not easy is when we don t have any pvts. Then, we see the dark side of it.

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#3 [url]

Mar 17 10 3:22 PM

Realcamgirl, your views and thought are most welcome here.

But I can provide proof and links to other forums, where you might see that there are victims that arise from this industry. And some of those victims are innocent people that never stepped foot into the world of online cam sites.

You and other models may not feel you're a victim but I disagree with you when you say that a model is not a victim in some respects.

As Andra, has written, some women are victims of their circumstances and environments. Perhaps because this work to them is or was accepted as a means to an end,does that mean they chose to do it of free will. Of course, no one holds a gun to their heads to force them into choosing it, but then for many if they had other alternative options, I am pretty certain they would not choose this line of work as their first career choice.

The same can be said for the innocent spouses of a male member(s), that have a compulsion and/or an addiction to viewing any form of pornography. Where the innocent spouse or children of these men are the victims of another person that can not contain their own urges or disease.

There are many other examples of victimization that is a result of this all. Just because you view yourself, not a victim, does not mean that there are no victims.

Keep posting here, your views and opinions are most welcome.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#4 [url]

Mar 17 10 10:35 PM

I never said there are no victims. But for a cam girl to view her self as victim is very bad. It means she is powerless and can not control her own fate. So you are saying that if you work in this field you are a victim. I think that it is bad that society makes us out to be the victim and makes this field dirty and wrong.


You want to help cam girls stop seeing us as victims instead see of us as strong successful women that makes more working from home without the crap of boss and other work place drama. We are just girls working hard to better your lifes. I am not Shamed of what I do nor will I think it will come back to bit me and if it does shame on the persons that is trying to bring me down.


Society need to let go of it stigma on sex worker and see it for what it really is just another high paying industry.

You wont every here some one says an actress is a victim because she might have to play part that would shame them. The cam girl jobs is the same we plays roles.


Now I am fully independent model. I have never and will never work for a studio. I work form my home and with sites and people that I like.


You may make me powerless to fit your role and stereotype of cam girls. But I am not. And I have no shame about what I do. I support myself and provide a good life for myself. See me how you will.


Be we don't need to be saved. and every thing in society has it victims. The wife of the ceo that works all the time is the victim but we don't say that he should not work because it creates victims

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#6 [url]

Mar 18 10 12:19 PM

Thanks for your comments, realcamgirl. It's always helpful to hear how American cam-models feel about their experiences in this industry... But there are major differences between how this works when you are an independent who works from home and owns her own web-blog. and when you are a Filipina model who lives in her studio 24/7 with her children and is paid about one peso per minute...
The rate of exploitation in this industry can be so different when one sets one's own terms..and when it's the studio owner who does it for you in a desperately poor developing country like Colombia, Romania or Vietnam.
Take a look at this exchange with our Australian model member, Bailey and some of our silver members to see where we were coming from ..and what we have learned since - in part due to feedback from cam models like yourself who are based in Western countries.
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...st=0&#entry6748
Thanks again for joining the conversation.
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#7 [url]

Apr 13 10 2:03 AM

If you don't mind i would like to make some comments.

First a little back ground info.

I own a studio in SE asia. I decided to open a studio to help girls get out of the prostitution industry. I do not take a large cut like some studios. Only 10-30% depending on the circumstances.

Of course i can not approach the girls that are trapped in brothels but the girls that are voluntarily working in bars are my main clients. When these girls were working in the bars they were at risk of physical abuse, drug abuse, and disease. Working on cam has removed them from these dangers and they make more money doing it. Some of these girls were only making $300 a month as a prostitute and saving none. They spent all their money on partying after work. Now they are making twice that amount or more and saving money. My lowest earner makes more money than the average government worker and my highest earner makes more than $2,000 a month. This girl that could not pass the university entrance exam is making more than the people that have doctorates. They are all very happy with the money they earn at their new job and some even like camming. Incidentally the girls that enjoy it make the most money because it shows on cam.

Are they victims ? Maybe but they are less so than they were before. As realcamgirl says they made the choices in their life and being a camgirl is a better alternative then being a prostitute. i do agree with andradavalent that they are victims of money because the could do like many others and get jobs at 7-11 or work in the rice fields but aren't most of us victims of money? How many of us do jobs we hate because it pays more than what we enjoy doing? I know i did.

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#8 [url]

Apr 16 10 3:55 PM

QUOTE (andradavalent @ March 17, 2010 03:37 am)
Agreed, realcamgirl. We are not victims but still ...we are. Victims of money.
And members are our victims, but it's our choice if we do this job and their choice if they want to be our victims. It's an easy job. The only moments when it's not easy is when we don t have any pvts. Then, we see the dark side of it.

Yeah... it's really frustrating when we don't get prvts...Especially if after many days you still don't have prvts haha.
Then you will start to feel sad....I really don't care whatever we have to do. Yes we have limits. You can say no if you don't like it.. But really when models get prvts or a very long prvt then she will be really happy so it's not like we are victim... But yes i believe we are victims of money... victims of fate for not giving us a better life:D

But , even some Hollywood stars are almost like cam girls lol. Coz sometimes they have love scenes and sometmes we can even see their tits.

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SweetSin

Regular Newbie

Posts: 18

#9 [url]

Mar 8 12 10:17 PM

Wow this is a sad topic for me.
First living in the USA I chose to be a Cam Model. I am lucky.

However, I have run across studios working out of other countries not so blessed who have people who have to work this job. They are poor, have children to feed, no education or just no work is available to them anyplace. So online is the place to rake in a few bucks to eat and sleep at night.

I'm not a fan of studios. But they do have their place, as mentioned above.
Sure beats losing your children and living on the streets it seems. Although I was never put into that position, and have heard horror stories about poor countries and cam work, long long hours, better produce, etc. I know it's true.

I met a nice Asian cam performer online and she said the studio gives her and her child a bed and food. She gets a very very small portion of any monies. This is sad reality.
But without the studio she would be homeless. As she was once.

PS I don't see anyone as victims doing adult work unless they are being kept against their will and made to work. They have a choice to either work an adult job, or be homeless. Many homeless people would not have it any other way. So.... Just saying.

If your gonna come into my cam room and call be a bitch, as least spell it right

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#10 [url]

Apr 2 12 5:10 PM

There's a new, satirical song on YouTube which takes MFC to task, calling it a "WebCamGirl Zoo" -- where the ladies, as "fishers of men," hook "the few that bite now and then," hauling them in for "chump change" during "a long day at a job that's a bore."

The song goes on to tell the story of a cute Russian PHD who loses her professional job and ends up as a "webcam whore" earning "small tips leading group masterbation."

The YouTube video is called "The WebCamGirl Zoo." It displays clever lyrics sung in retro style to a comical dixieland jazz accompaniment which sounds much like a herd of elephants bellowing from accute indigestion. You'll find it here: http://youtu.be/3jcYdfyfePQ




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#11 [url]

Apr 2 12 8:02 PM

Welcome StupidCupid. Nice post.. And that song is all too accurate.

Look at poximus' post about the "girls" who work in his Odessa studio, including one dentist, two doctors and a shrink.. all cam-hoing because they can't find work in their fields with their professional credentials.

Look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...t=0&#entry21422

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#12 [url]

Apr 6 12 11:08 PM

Thank you, UncleLewis, for your kind welcome. In my first contribution I provided a YouTube link to a satirical song, "TheWebCamGirl Zoo," which protested (among other things) the economic exploitation of camgirls, presumably on MFC. If it's true that many (if not most) MFC camgirls are underpaid for the hours they spend online and for the services they provide, is it fair to consider these sex workers to be "victims?"

The English word "victim" derives from the Latin "victima," meaning "a beast for sacrifice." Modern definitions of "victim" retain the original connotation of passivity: the "victim" is the object of some destructive, injurious, or adverse action or agency. Generally, we reserve our greatest sympathies for "unwilling victims" -- for those who do not bring misfortune down upon themselves through prior foolish action or inaction.

Camgirls who object to being pitied as "victims" may find some comfort in the assurance that the male viewing public seems to have little sympathy for them, because so many camgirls appear to be "willing victims" of economic exploitation. Their low camscores should tell the ladies that they have a bleak future on MFC, yet they remain, ever hopeful it seems.

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duncan85

Regular Newbie

Posts: 19

#13 [url]

Apr 15 12 12:33 PM

I have been involved into this industry for 4 years now, and i can tell that what is really missing is platforms like this, where people can share their thoughts and experiences. I could find only a few, and also created one myself. As i see, that regardless of the moral questions this whole industry still "lurks" in the dark as most of its workers, therefore people do not know much about it and think that what they think or do not think at all. This applies for the workers, the viewers and the society as well. Noone admints it but wast majority of the people involved somehow. The more we speak about this and the more we reveal from this secret word the better chances we have to make things better. People need to learn how to do this job, and how to use this service, and this can only be achieved by bringing it to the light.

Many of the models are the controllers of their own fate but unfortunately many others are not, depending on studios or others, and the have to do this job without knowing a thing about it. Sad but true, but the more pages like this excists the more chance the can have to learn and change.

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#14 [url]

Apr 15 12 1:45 PM

Welcome Duncan, And thanks for your kind words about our collective efforts here.
There are other professional forums for English speaking cam models but not many that look closely at the studio models of Eastern Europe and Latin America - that are also independent of the industry. The Eastern European forums like AVC.ro that we know of are all run by Studio Owners and admins.. although they can be a source of good information as you can see from what we have re-posted in The Situation in Romania and Russia.
BTW, we know relatively little about the Adult Video Chat industry in your home country.
Could you take a look at our current list of studio locations in Europe, and make corrections where needed?
Look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...t=5&st=0#entry5

Your web-forum looks interesting...but is it a commercial site?
If so, then kindly read "The Rules" about posting advertizing..

Again welcome and thanks for joining the conversation, Duncan.

EB

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#15 [url]

Apr 15 12 5:40 PM

QUOTE (duncan85 @ April 15, 2012 07:33 am)
...the more pages like this excists the more chance the can have to learn and change.

The more forums there are, the better? For whom? If it's for members who patronize the webcam sites, what's better for them? Forums for them to either brag or otherwsie share their online exploits?

Once, I particpated in an outpatient rehab clinic. It served as a brag-fest for the few of us there: here's how many holes I used to put in my arm, the purity of my stash, the quality, yada, yada (just like what I'm doing now, again, lol).

What's better for many models who might participate or join such a forum? More such forums from which to choose to join/not join, write/not right?

Or is it better that this one forum here become the magnet for many models (not to discount the other two biggies, SW and the forum which is administered by an American mfc camgirl, I don't recall her name)? Those two forums are already homes for may models and I don't advocate taking away their place to voice and share and exchange and post.

But rather than further water down the choices, strengthen this forum. It's a proper online home to those who need one.

I feel, generally, that guys, members the clients of camgirls don't need a home, per se. But having said that, this forum is the best of such a so-called home because it has the kind of open exchanges which a person can learn, grow, comiserate if need be, and give a client's point of view.

Other forums, won't they turn into online versions of the MFC lounge? That's what I see for that. Here, it's moderated and there's a form a "peer pressure" to effect behavioral sanction of an errant camsite member. That is to say, a member could quickly get put in his place by fellow participants.

Priority, in my opinion, is to what's best for the models which sign up as members.

We don't need more kinds of ketchup. Let more people use the Heinz we all know and love.






.
.
You stuck your forearm up the backside of an antelope
and you didn't know that you're going for a ride?

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#16 [url]

Apr 15 12 5:52 PM

I have fought some battles here....right guys ?

But on the other hand I also understand all your reactions...

Stays the fact that I always read studios or site-owners to be the bad guys...
And that not necessarely has to be so...

Many studio-owners really do a lot for their models...
from training, till financial planning-support, till even mental support...

And I stay also 100% the fact that not one model is forced to do this job...
they have a choice...if they do so and make a better life for themselves, is that bad ?

Once I read a nice sentence put here by Uncle...
..."we all have this white-knight-hood in us..."

I really understand you all care and like to fight for the "poor girls"...
but truth is, they aren't "poor girls"..see ?

This misunderstanding I will always keep repeating !
You all too much think they need your help or pitty...

They are more than OK...trust me !



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#17 [url]

Apr 15 12 6:52 PM

Point taken, Proximus.

Of course the studios and some larger studios with owners and managers, really do help those people out that are in need of help. I can't deny that fact.

And the point to some degree that no one is forced into this work is a choice of a decision by free will and free choice.

But...Now I am going to repeat myself as well.

For those people who do choose this work, there is an underlying failure of economics and of the "system" that affords many no other choice but to choose camming as a viable means to make a better life for oneself.

I will back up that statement with this knowledge and factual discussion with many a model.

I recently spoke to 3 models, who have earned degrees in whatever field they chose to their liking. In all 3(and I stress, that there are many more in the same predicament) that they have genuinely told me that with that degree, it is useless and worthless in their locations. That attaining that degree neither assures them that they have any good alternative career or job choices, that pay well enough to survive within the economic circumstances they live in.

For example, if rent costs a person 200-300 euro/month, and food and utilities cost another 300-500/month, and yet a different job available for them, pays only 200-500/month, you see a failure of viable alternatives other than camming,as a means to survive.

Simple economics and failure of affordable housing, food and other things, are placing a huge disparity between the haves and haves not within many poorer Eastern European countries.

I asked one such woman why is that? And they began blaming the corruption and their government leaders for their selfish and heartless treatment and their lack of concern for the less fortunate. I then asked them, "well who can afford those things when many can not afford them?" The answer was quite interesting. It is similar to class warfare, that business and government cater to those who can pay for those overpriced foodstuffs and rents etc, the poorer have no choice, they can either scrape and save and hope they can earn big in the only work that might pay a decent wage for them to live more comfortably.

So again, I say, is this a choice out of necessity and desperation, or a failure of other things. When there are little other alternatives for people, there is little choice and perhaps very little free choice as you promote.

It is quite easy to say that you are doing good, but really, where is the choice?

I will add that I want to ask you all a simple question now...

If you had a friend who found themselves in a desperate situation, and they told you that they were thinking of trying prostitution as a choice, albeit, of course as you all say, free choice, to survive, and you know it is not something they wish to pursue, would you say that is a choice or a lack of opportunity overall? Would you want that good friend to do something and allow them to do something,(you and them know honestly), would destroy them even more, psychologically, and physically?

I think not... and you as any friend would, would do their best to help them by becoming a so called white knight.

Finally, not all of these women want to work for a studio and have parts of their earnings go to someone else nor does the statement, that "all these women are doing fine" is all encompassing. You are neglecting those who really do not wish to do this work, and those who are not as beautiful or enticing to members in comparison with many other women who work as cam models. Never forget, that 95% of this work is visual to hook a wanker.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#18 [url]

Apr 15 12 8:52 PM

Trainer, clearly Proximus knows this all too well. Look at his post about all the unemployed Dentists, Doctors, lawyers and Psychologists who are working in his studio to make ends meet. Look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...t=0&#entry21422

The thing is that this is no longer just an Eastern European problem. It's ours as well. With levels of economic inequality in the US now comparable to Nigeria or Turkmenistan, and the top 1% of households capturing 93% of all additional income generated in 2010, our situation increasingly resembles theirs - with the additional problem of "Debt Bondage for Life" for American University students because of our crazy system of "college loans" that has become a financial trap for many of them. So the sex industry becomes an attractive escape route for some.

Take a listen to this Podcast by Professor Richard Wolff on "How the 15 and the 99% experience Capitalist Crises."

Listen here: http://rdwolff.com/content/how-1-and-99-ex...ses-differently

EB

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#19 [url]

Apr 15 12 10:26 PM

I comprehend that he knows this all too well. I also am glad you made a point that it is not just only an Eastern European problem but a problem that is surfacing around the globe as well.

But to say that economically, that in comparison, things are equal between 2 countries or a few countries. One must take into account, the cost of living index, the education and training of its people, and the opportunities and jobs available.

I would believe you would agree with me, that a Dentist,Lawyer,Manager etc. in the USA vs. those in Romania,or in other countries that all professions would have the same salary scales or pay rates. Or that the cost of gas, rent, and utilities would be priced the same as well and in equal ratios. Or for the matter of healthcare(don't get me started on that comparison). So now the point is that why would the price of chicken, or eggs, or fish, or a single potato have to cost more than in the USA, in Romania. Or that they tax their citizens too much and provide less support in return for their own people.

I remind you that a model member here from this forum, "chose" a profession paying less money to do something they prefer to do, and quit camming, than what could be earned in camming. But it served a purpose and got them on their feet and then guess what? They got the F out. And how many others we have learned about have got the F out. Why would anyone want to get out when it pays so well,then?

I find it, narrow minded when people say, come to me, with open arms and become a cam model, and you will earn much more and live a better life than what is available out there as an alternative. It just describes how bad things really are. And I also remind you that some have said, I will make enough money in camming and then I can get the F out. Well that really does occur many times, and camming got them to where they want to be. But the irony is, they wanted to get away from it, not be drawn into because of necessity.

How many children tell their Parents when growing up, I want to be a cam model? Or my goal in life is to become a successful cam model. Why not make it an accredited course of study in Universities then. Then people can earn Bachelor degrees in the study of adult cam modeling.(Yeah I know, I am being sarcastic).

So generally, Proximus and I have come to the same realistic conclusions, that things ain't so great in the real world, huh. But of course Proximus also won't speak badly of the work of camming because he earns money from it as well.

Touche`.... and I am not picking a fight either but just stating some other real facts.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#20 [url]

Apr 16 12 8:37 PM

Touché...

Trainer, I plead guilty on the fact of making a living on the bizz...
but I still repeat that at least I do it the Western way, being structured, organised and fair, especially towards the models.

And even if you generalize, which I truly understand from your point of view..............I can say I ain't one of the bad examples !
(even if i say so myself)

Of course the economic situation in these countries here are playing a big role !
And of course I never heared my daughter say "I want to be a cammodel too"...

But then again...that is reality of this society and we can't change the world alone...
we can only try to make it better in our little circles, right ?

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