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Tom78

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Dec 10 06 2:10 PM

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In "About CGN" you can read "....we create this forum for cam-girls..." and "...We aim to make it possible for you to exchange information, tips and points of view across national borders and studio doors within Europe -but also world wide...."

This is one reason why I joined this forum!

On the other hand, some time ago I got a first impression of a camgirl who remarked after registering: "...as for 'notes', i can say that i expected that there arent many people & as i have said it needs more girls..."

Of course I'm glad that there are a lot of registered camgirls in this forum. Some of them are very talkative! I'm glad about that too! Nevertheless a shift in the numerical proportion between models and other members towards more models it something we should be aiming for.

The main question for me is, how to make this forum more attractive to models? The only persons who can give a true answer are the models themselves. Though I won't restrict this inquiry in any way, I would prefer their answers! I consciously posted in "Public Room - Guest Book" to give guest models the opportunity to add their opinion here too!

All are invited!
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#1 [url]

Dec 18 06 3:15 PM

hi Tom
yes really this forum was made for cam models but lately i can see that its more for people who just wanna discuss: models problems, work in common, payments and just by mood - politics, economics, history....thanks god no biology here yet
How to make this forum more attractive to models? I guess the only way is to discuss problems that really bother models and not just to put here themes which models don't even want to get published and moreover discuss... In models area there are some discussions that really attracted models because there was real advice and not only 'be careful and leave this f***g job'... or discussions of how shameful this job is... So think of that...

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#2 [url]

Dec 18 06 4:46 PM

cool.gif

Dear Delfina,
We here are very aware of the economic situation across Eastern Europe that makes "camming" a rational if disagreeable, job choice. This is why we organized the Models2Models forum and put other useful advice about freelancing into the restricted models section. To give some studio girls who told us they had "no choice," a broader menu to choose from. And even the discussion here about EBay and export/import over the internet is in that same spirit - an exploration of the real alternatives to cam studio work - especially now that the risks of working there have increased so dramatically over the past few months.

We will raise questions about it though - because it's a misallocation of human resources that doesn't make sense for societies over the long-run - even when it helps individuals keep a roof over their heads- or to go clubbing. But still, why put hundreds (if not thousands) of your most "attractive and ambitious" women students from your "prestige universities" through this online course in the courtesan arts...? Certainly they have something better to do with their lives and talents than simply be "working here only for your pleasure, sir," as a model in your studio told me this summer.

Delfina, you have mis-understood what I have said here about "shame." I never said that I personally thought that being a cam model was "shameful." And even if I have serious questions about webpimp exploitation of people who are vulnerable because of their economic insecurity, that hasn't stopped me from listening carefully to what some people "in the business" - like VCS -could teach me.

But I have heard countless models tell me that they wanted to keep their job a secret from boyfriends, friends and family because and I quote a Czech colleague of yours, "I am not proud of myself for what I am doing here..." And then again, I have also heard countless models tell me - the way Alxxx did last Spring - that "there is nothing wrong about it." Or as my friend Nxxxx told me last Winter "I am not ashamed of anything I am doing. I am not caring if people see me nude." Personal opinions differ then..between models as well as members - about what's shameful or not.

But what Tom78 and I are talking about is something else - the political attitude adopted by official cultural authorities. What we are seeing across the Western world is an attempt by social conservatives to undo the "sexual revolution of the 20th century," and to re-create a sense of shame about the open expression of sexuality or any public nudity whether its on the beach or on cam.. This is not a matter of personal taste. This is support for an official "policy of shaming" anyone who "deviates" from their approved model of sexual relationships...which is mongamous marriage with a single sex partner for life. So when we talk about "shame" here, we are talking about this reactionnary attempt to restore "social stigma" as an tool of social discipline and public punishment.

I believe that women today are increasingly caught between a rock and a "hard place." On the one hand, there's the popular "raunch culture" that lends itself more to the commercial exploitation of women's bodies than to their personal sexual self discovery, and on the other, the conservative religious backlash that would return all family and sexual relations to regulation under tradtional religious authority. That means the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox churches in your case, and the fundamentialist protestant preachers in ours.

And that is why, Delfina, most of us here at CGN think that all sex work should be legal.. and sex workers protected by fair labor regulations .. not be subjected to criminal sanctions....What bothers me most is the violation of the labor rights of sex workers in this global marketplace..but this is a matter of HUMAN rights - not of sexual puritanism.

Does that help clear things up?
cool.gif
Ul

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#3 [url]

Dec 18 06 9:02 PM

Dunno about the others...but i Love that forum !! Indeed i think i'm gonna be fluent in english thanks to you Mr UncleLewis !

Seriously, you should try to make it short sometimes..but yes i know that you are already making big efforts

About the Models restricted area of the forum and the Model2Model forum, i'm glad that there are some interesting things there for models lol
So if you are a model and that you are not registered on CGN, i really invite you to do so because - i agree with Delfina - this is the most useful section here for models....and this is most of the times the section that is hosting what you are searching for.

Now, Delfina, if there is anything missing to the forum, whatever the section, you know what to do cool.gif

C ya !

How to access the Model Restricted Area of CGN

Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#4 [url]

Feb 12 07 4:37 PM


So let's finally talk about Delfina's post some weeks ago about what makes this forum useful or not to its model members.

Delfina said, and I quote:

How to make this forum more attractive to models? I guess the only way is to discuss problems that really bother models and not just to put here themes which models don't even want to get published and moreover discuss... In models area there are some discussions that really attracted models because there was real advice and not only 'be careful and leave this f***g job'... or discussions of how shameful this job is... So think of that...

I have tried to put my discussion of "shame and stigma" in another context, but it really hits on one of our problems here. The title of this forum ironically expresses a cultural contradiction between East and West, and a confusion in expectations, that really trouble us the most. And I dont really believe that it's my posts about trafficking and sex workers that are our main problem here.

First, it turns out that Cam models are not really like amateur "Cam-Girls" at all - even if both put their life and sometimes their ass online. The amateur Cam-Girls that one finds on MySpace or Yahoo or HiFive open up their most intimate thoughts - and the important events and people in their personal life - to the whole world's inspection, and they seek as much exposure across the entire world wide web as they can possibily get. On the one hand, total exposure is a cam-girl's main strategy for achieving the desirable status of "internet celebrity." On the other hand, most cam-models "don't want to get famous for doing this."

Indeed, Cam-models, however much they may expose their bodies online, live in constant fear of having their working life exposed to their family; friends, and maybe the not so friendly, neighborhood Militiaman. Cam-girls love gossip. Cam-Models hate it, and some of them see this forum as a "gossip circle" for Western "busybodies" and wannabe "do-gooders," who only end up "spreading gossip about us." Of course, I should add that what's one girl's hot gossip is another man's antecdotal evidence, lol, and client gossip remains the main way models inform themselves about the industry they are in. And this remains true. Despite our best efforts to fix that by offering them a secure communications link, most our model members simply choose not to use it.

So our name Cam-Girl Notes appears to be an ironic misnomer..This is a forum that is about Cam-models who work in video chat but almost all of the notes that made here, are posted either by our male members, or by former models and translators who are now out of the business.. The number of active models who still post is miniscule.

If we could change our name, I might suggest something like "Notes on Cam-Models - the Gossip Circle," but fortunately for us we can't do that. Even so, it's interesting to note that the members who post intimate things about themselves are mainly the male members. So in a weird kind of reversal of the usual gender roles - it's the men here who behave the most like the teen-age "cam-girls" one finds elsewhere - and who seek to document their emotional wounds over their relationships with the cam-girls they have known. While our cam-models stay mum about themselves and their feelings by and large, and sit back to listen to the men who chatter on.

But I know that Cam-models can and do worry about the emotional impact their virtual friendships can have on their site members, and in fact talk about it quite a lot - but among their co-workers and not with their public. I know this because models have told me so in my in-depth interviews. Indeed beyond the fear of public exposure, worrying about the impact of their fanatasy" friendships"on the men they meet online, is probably the next most common concern they have expressed to me about their work. As one ukrainian model told me last year:"Here feelings are just the part of the game, not the main part, but anyway, I've never told anybody here anything about love... just playing, flirting, friendship may be... that's all. And as far as I have heard from the girls working in our studio, the most difficult thing for them is not playing in pvt, but playing with people's feelings... [/i]
A sentiment that was echoed by another model just last week who said:
[i] "Psychological harm for the model is really danger as well, since she's vulnerable to moral agression, hostility, humiliation, prejudice and of course, to emotional relationships with customers. Once she's aware of what she might cause in a customer's head things tend to become a little more dangerous."


So I think that having our male members show their feelings and display their wounds on their intro pages may actually be a service for them too - as an aid to further reflection for all the models who pass through here...lol. And of course, I guess it's no accident that the CGN topic that has had the largest number of contact hits is the one on "friendship." "Friendship" leads our list of "greatest CGN hits," at last count some 76 replies and 1707 hits, lol. It's that one particular exchange between models and members that is one part of this forum which resembles the most closely the comments one might read in the "General Forum" on Cam-Contacts for example.

But in general though, I think that the one thing that may have saved us - besides the practical communication links, the alerts to new internet dangers and proxy tools that we offer our model members free of charge - is the general "impersonality" of this forum. This forum has been mainly about diffusing public information about this underground, global industry - and collecting more data - and not about broadcasting far and wide the intimate details of the lives of its model members. However much the guys here might feel free to bleed all over the page.

We must do more to make the models2models section work better - as Delfina suggests - and probably should begin by closing it to all the male members and moderators. That way that part of the forum can really be just for "the girls" -without constant comments from nosey moderators like me - or interference from anxious admins who want to monitor and police their conversations. So we need to find a model who can act as the real moderator of that part of the forum.

Thanks
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#5 [url]

Feb 21 07 1:05 AM

"and probably should begin by closing it to all the male members and moderators. That way that part of the forum can really be just for "the girls" -without constant comments from nosey moderators like me "

Well, dear Uncle Lewis, this would be a great start to make this site more comfortable for some models.



"So we need to find a model who can act as the real moderator of that part of the forum."

True brilliance is coming through now. Give the Models a person they can trust, and is not going to overload them with a abundance of questioning right from the start. This would help the site many times over I am thinking.

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#6 [url]

Feb 21 07 4:41 AM


Thanks Judas, for ur timely support...
And welcome.

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#7 [url]

Feb 21 07 10:47 PM

well guys its no shame to folow the example of others...for instance on other chat-related forums models just ask questions in theyr designed area and the recive answers from those who know best( if there are any around on that forum). Its simple and straight to the point. Its stupid to open a topic about something and than wait answers that are far from the main toipic itselfe...like it happens here unfortunately...

an admin should start a topic in the models area like 'any question here please' and than anyone can ask short and to the point questions, nothing like friendship or marryage and all that crap, its not oure business that ur life sucks...

this is a porn related forum and created for models, not some hurt members from some god forgotten site on the web !!!

ps: Uncle..I resent the 'We here are very aware of the economic situation across Eastern Europe'...I trust u got over ur predjudice about us 'poor three world countries', at least models do it here cause it pays not like in the west where models do far far more desgusting things on a cam just cause their brains are screwed up...this is only a business nobody is more forces models to do this job, even Bush is forced to work in an office ...he doesn't like it either

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#8 [url]

Feb 21 07 11:09 PM


Belea.. Let me quote myself from last JUNE...
Quote
"We Westerners just don't know the context in Eastern Europe or in Latin America that shapes people's choices.. and makes this work appear as a disgreeable but rational choice ..
And not only to women there, but also to a hell of a lot of young women and men in Canada, The United States and Western Europe - who tell themselves that working on line at $2.00 per minute beats working at K-Mart for $5.15 per hour. We have destroyed many of the working class jobs that use to pay middle class incomes.. so people turn to the sex industry for all sorts of reasons."
UnQuote
As I have pointed out many times here, Belea, The United States Of America is not only one of the biggest porn consumers, but also one of the biggest porn producers - and there's an army of American girls on line from their bedrooms and dorm rooms "peddling their ass" on the big Camwebsites like IFriends and ImLive.

And they are extremely "patriotic" about asserting the superiority of "Corn Fed, Grade A" AMERICAN ASS over all other kinds too. - for an example please look at The American CamGirl Manifesto in my reading room. This is why American models inevitablely fly the "Stars and Stripes" in their bio pictures and advertise their nationality - whereas other models tend to hide it.

So Belea remember: "USA Number One!!!"

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#9 [url]

Feb 22 07 4:08 PM

Yeah USA rules !!! at sickness that is...

with all due respect for ur passporte Uncle, my point was and it will always be: those american girls that are so patriotic, stick chairs up their asses because they love it, it's what they are good at, thats how they think( if i put a chair in my ass im a cool girl) not because of the 5$ at K-Mart. Ur patriotism is misplaced here ,im sorry but it's the truth and u know it all too well...

its a sick world all around so patriotism is a thing of the past...u and me and anyone else should not defend models in any way, common sense is dead and buried, the only difference is that some girls(easterners mostly) do it for the money, some girls (USA and the rest of the 'civilized world') do it cause they LIKE IT..money comes as a bonus

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#10 [url]

Feb 22 07 5:11 PM


Sorry to disagree.. Belea
Despite all that one sees of the "raunch culture" and porn celebrity in American pop culture - I seriously doubt that the American cam models enjoy "Anal penetration" any more than most of the cam girls from the Eastern Countries do.

Everyone here - except for Tim - underestimates how much many regions in the American Middle West and the South East and South West ( the so-called "red states" of "Jesusland") have been economically devastated by the loss of manufacturing and technical jobs..which have been outsourced to East Asia. 5 million manufacturing jobs in 5 years.

There are pockets of third world poverty everywhere in the Big cities of the US and their surrounding ring of decaying suburbs...both of which suffer from massive "disinvestment" by both the Federal Government and the transnational corportations. The bottom half of American society is poor because 55% of American jobs pay less than $14 dollars an hour or $27,000 per year - a princely sum in Eastern Europe perhaps, but which means a poverty budget in the U.S.

Belea, U are trying to catch up with U.S. in terms of economic development, but in effect we have caught up with you instead.

So American cam-girls "peddle their ass" online for exactly the same reasons that everybody else does - not their envy of Paris Hilton - but because they can find no jobs that pay anything close to cam-modeling in terms of earning a "living wage" in post-industrial, imperial America.

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#11 [url]

Feb 22 07 9:32 PM

we can argue forver Uncle....bottom line is that u speak from statistics, i speak from experience and more than that we argue for nothing - this forum won't get any better without more models here, plus...the ratio of members/models is at the moment the opposite way from what it should be

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#12 [url]

Feb 23 07 2:57 AM

I think it will be interesting to know especially for moderators...yesterday i sent link to cam girl notes to my friend and also model. Just wanted to make her laugh with Belea's post about addictive wanking And she told me she didnt like forum at all...She told its quite 'not bright' and 'made not comfortable'. About not bright she explained that very hard to read script and bad backspace. So maybe you will think of it...I agree with my friends a lot and can tell that it was a main reason i didnt visit forum at first.

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#13 [url]

Feb 23 07 6:40 AM

QUOTE (belea_79 @ February 22, 2007 01:32 pm)
this forum wount get any better without more models here , plus...the ratio members/models is at the momets the other way it should be 

Yes, belea, I agree with you -- and that is exactly why I have shut up lately!

Three pieces of advice for a happy life:
* Never eat at a place named Mom's.
* Never play cards with a man named Doc.
* Never get in a relationship with someone whose problems are worse than your own.
--Anon.

"Ganja is the true Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - be wasted to be saved!"

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you.
This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
--Mark Twain

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#14 [url]

Feb 23 07 12:41 PM


Thanks for the comments guys... We agree that we need more model members which is why we are trying to add more practical information in the Models2Models section - like website reviews by camgirl fans and market statistics on the traffick going to different websites which are in competition with each other for client dollars - the kind of practical stuff that Delfina requested weeks ago.

Now Delfina has raised another point... that the visual layout of this site is so unattractive that it's enough to deter models from posting here....

Do others agree?

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#15 [url]

Feb 23 07 5:47 PM

Hello, Doc,

I'm not sure that d. meant unattractive so much as difficult to read.

I don't know how much flexibility the forum software gives you, but a slightly larger default body type size would help. I'd leave the light-grey background as is, and improve the contrast by using black instead of grey type. If black isn't an option, then make blue the default. These two steps would combine to greatly improve readability. Remember, there are still a lot of 15-in. monitors out there!

Cheers,
Wanker

Three pieces of advice for a happy life:
* Never eat at a place named Mom's.
* Never play cards with a man named Doc.
* Never get in a relationship with someone whose problems are worse than your own.
--Anon.

"Ganja is the true Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - be wasted to be saved!"

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you.
This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
--Mark Twain

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#16 [url]

Feb 23 07 7:04 PM

QUOTE (Wanker @ February 23, 2007 05:47 pm)
Remember, there are still a lot of 15-in. monitors out there!


Especially in models studios
But really i gave u the opinion of the model who seen the site first time. And my opinion was quite the same. Why not to make forum better looking. I would say that the background looks not good too...kinda dull hehe. And contrast is very low. I always had hard time reading big posts here. And i think that if you want to attract people here and especially models whose eyes are already tired from hours in chat you'd better make it more attractive to them. Just imagine first reaction of the forum: 'omg...so hard to read..small script, hard to see, everything so not bright...hard to find what exactly to read and where so it needs time to realize it... no thanks some other time'. Of course you can tell that content is more important than entire look but still thats what people notice first.

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#17 [url]

Feb 24 07 12:23 AM

ok, very good.

I take note ! Thanks Wanker, DLF and the others !

We'll try to work on that ASAP...


cool.gif

Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#18 [url]

Feb 26 07 8:27 PM

Now much better, Slider! Thanx!

I'm sure everyone will agree...

Three pieces of advice for a happy life:
* Never eat at a place named Mom's.
* Never play cards with a man named Doc.
* Never get in a relationship with someone whose problems are worse than your own.
--Anon.

"Ganja is the true Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - be wasted to be saved!"

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you.
This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
--Mark Twain

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#19 [url]

Feb 27 07 12:33 AM

better better...i have also advice or maybe ask to guests and members to post in large size:) looks much better at all

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#20 [url]

Mar 2 07 4:45 AM

I for one like the layout, its not cluttered with background images that can make it hard to read although I just found the site today it may have changed from when others were talking about it.
Although I am not tecnically a "model" the one thing I didnt like was information about sites and the business not being easy to find (in otherwords without registering and being let into the model area)
It may help to have information on sites, pay scales, and such more readly availible.
Also the problem with not many models.. I had to dig through search engines to find the site. I'm not sure how but maybe make it easyer to find somehow? I know this so far is the only forum I have been able to find of this type that wasnt a "blog" by a model or two that didnt have anything relivant on it.
Since I have yet to see the model area I know I will continue my search for a forum that provides information on chosing a site and such but I think I will also stick around here a bit at the same time

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