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Tom78

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Dec 19 06 6:57 PM

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The term "Shame" is onmipresent on this site as well as on Webcam sites, but nearly nowhere explicit mentioned.
Of course you can say: "It's only theory, let's talk about practical things". But is it really?

After pussy, ass and tits, "blushing" is one of the most used words in sex chats! "Blushing" is the physical expression of shame and and can't be controled by mind!
The visitors tell it, regardless if the models does or not! So it must have a special meaning for them! From my point of view 2 explanations are possible:
If they cause this reaction, it shows them, that they have control over the model -it's an objective feedback, because the reaction can not be suppressed.
If they only tell it without reason, they want to point out that they are able to break taboos! As it could seen at many other objects in our societies, breaking taboos is often a way to the next kick!
Don't get me wrong! Breaking taboos is sometimes needed to change intolerable social conditions! But I doubt, that it should become a fun-factor!

If models are really blushing, then that cam-business is obviously not such shameless as it seems to be. (What do our model members think? Only imagination of visitors, really existing but only newbies?)

Many other facts point in the same direction:
I asked many, many models, which persons knows about their job. I could give many quotes here, but I will limit it to some typical. Most of them answered astonishingly frank: "nobody" or.. "Some good friends" After going into the last answer I got a more exact explanation: "...only some friends know about my job... girls help me to find costumes or hair style sometimes hehe, guys laugh and say they would like to work there too but i tell them all only funny aspects of this job, i cant tell how difficult to work there sometimes....."
BTW That model had (at least in the beginning) a very positive attitude to that job: "..... earlier "Keeps" saved me.. it was a good emotion"

Often I found a cartel of silence:husbands, bfs or parents could guess what has to be done there, but didn't dare to ask, because they fear the answers!

So are all these societies in Poland Russia or Ukraine reactionary?

I guess not. An easy explanation you can find in specific literature:
Shame is NOT a "pathological" feeling! It should be seen as regulative. That means, it is a social emotion which regulates social interactions between men. It already had been defined as 'custodian of human dignity'

Those social interaction can take place despite the long distance in cyberspace even if only under very special conditions. A model once told me:
"There is no real difference between nude in public or in pvt. Sense of shame -if u have it, or shamelessness- it will be the same here and there."
"There is just one point- i dont feel shame in common, only in one case when i know, that people, who never had pvt with me, who still respect me- they c me too, just like those who mean to me nothing or who apprehend me just as a sexy girl they like."
It's the well known situation of travel aquaintance. You might tell during travelling your whole life with many intimate details without any problems (you probably will see that person never again). You never would tell the same to someone who knows you better and thinks highly of you!

But very often shame is used by some parts of the society to push their moral ideas! This is coming along with the strong unpleasant feeling of being guilty!
It is hard to seperate, but this is NOT what I was talking about here!


What do you think? Is "shame" a necessary part of talking on this forum, or better leave it here? (Of course I would be interested to know why?)
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#1 [url]

Dec 19 06 8:34 PM

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Interesting topic Tom.. thanks for starting it

Of course, it's something that has already been touched on a little elsewhere
so I would like to recall what I have said - to help stimulate the discussion here.

Here's my comment on this topic to Delfina from the Guest Book...
UL

QUOTE


Delfina, you have mis-understood what I have said here about "shame." I never said that I personally thought that being a cam model was "shameful." And even if I have serious questions about webpimp exploitation of people who are vulnerable because of their economic insecurity, that hasn't stopped me from listening carefully to what some people "in the business" - like VCS -could teach me.

But I have heard countless models tell me that they wanted to keep their job a secret from boyfriends, friends and family because and I quote a Czech colleague of yours, "I am not proud of myself for what I am doing here..."  And then again,  I have also heard countless models tell me - the way Alxxx did last Spring - that "there is nothing wrong about it." Or as my friend Nxxxx told me last Winter "I am not ashamed of anything I am doing. I am not caring if people see me nude." Personal opinions differ then..between models as well as members - about what's shameful or not.

But what Tom78 and I are talking about is something else - the political attitude adopted by official cultural authorities.  What we are seeing across the Western world is an attempt by social conservatives to undo the "sexual revolution of the 20th century," and to re-create a sense of shame about the open expression of sexuality or any public nudity whether its on the beach or on cam.. This is not a matter of personal taste. This is support for an official "policy of shaming" anyone who "deviates" from their approved model of sexual relationships...which is monogamous marriage with a single sex partner for life. So when we talk about "shame" here, we are talking about this reactionnairy attempt to restore "social stigma" as an tool of social discipline and public punishment.

I believe that women today are increasingly caught between a rock and a "hard place." On the one hand, there's the popular "raunch culture" that lends itself more to the commercial exploitation of women's bodies than to their personal sexual self discovery,  and on the other,  the conservative religious backlash that would return all family and sexual relations to regulation under tradtional religious authority. That means the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox churches in your case, and the fundamentialist protestant preachers in ours.

And that is why, Delfina, most of us here at CGN think that all sex work should be legal.. and sex workers protected by  fair labor regulations .. not be subjected to criminal sanctions....What bothers me most is the violation of the labor rights of sex workers in this global marketplace..but this is a matter of HUMAN rights - not of sexual puritanism.


And my reply to your long analytic piece - again on the same theme of shame...
QUOTE

So Tom, allow me to add one comment to your discussion of "shame" - which I found especially insightful and interesting.

Social scientists have been talking about the "prestige/honor" aspect of social status since Max Weber's time, but also about the stress that "social stigma" brings to the people who work in professions that are labelled as "deviant."

I agree with you that we are not talking about personal “guilt” here – but something that touches on social prestige or stigma associated with any occupation. If you will, “it's the degree of public honor or dishonor that is attached to a social role” and how that honor or “shame” is internalized by the social agents who perform that role in real life. It’s the intangible dimension of “status” that one smart web-pimp was targeting when he advertised his student cam models to potential webmaster affiliates as girls who were ready to “Ruin their reputations in order to get an education….”


And certainly many of the models we see on line are caught in a nasty SIDS contradiction - a situation of Status/Income Dissonance... Many are either students or university graduates, who should enjoy some social prestige as "kulturny-intelligentz" even if they are poor. But these students have solved their financial issues by entering a sex work profession that threatens to destroy both their sense of self worth and whatever social honor they may have earned by working hard to get a university diploma.

This must be a terrible bind. To live simultaneously as "good student" in your everyday world and at the same time work as a "nasty, funky cam-hoe" when you appear on line. It's a terrible, frightening secret, which as you point out so accurately, they can share with no-one in their real lives - only with their new "friends on line." No wonder then that their lives come to turn more and more around video chat to exclusion of everything and everyone else. It's not only about the money - it's about managing the psychological "dissonance" that comes with the stigma they must learn to live with somehow.


Thanks to both Tom78 and to Delfina, for raising this issue - each in their own distinctive ways

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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