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Jan 2 11 10:15 PM

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I am posting this as a seperate thread from Reuters how to text Romania one out of respect for his wishes of keeping that thread on topic...

Its directed to members who find themselves in a similar sort of situation, and its a word of caution. So even if youre reading this and thinking oh no, this has nothing to do with me or my situation, keep an open mind cause it just might.

The worst thing a camgirl can say to anyone- a member, a friend, anyone who affects her earnings is the word no. You never say no. If you have to, you say it in other creative ways, where it seems like a yes but it really is a no.

One thing that I do that I know many other models do is to act naive. Oh you want me to add you on facebook? Sorry I dont use facebook- cant figure out how to work it. Chat with you on yahoo? Mmm I have some kind of firewall I dont know how to get around preventing me from using that. Send you picture messages? Oh I would love to but I dont know how to do that on my phone!

Ive had guys send me links to the online manual for my phone and you know what I do with them? Right to the trash. Yeah sorry cause I dont have adobe reader installed and my laptop is oh so crappy I cant install it. The really agressive ones who are so desperate to take it further will. Theyll cut and paste me snippets from the manual trying to help me learn (for my own benefit of course) and will sit with me in pay per minute chat trying to teach me how to use my phone.

Then finally I 'get' it and am able to text them a few pictures they so desire but oh no! I find out my plan doesnt cover unlimited picture messages and I just cant afford to keep sending them. So you know what happens next? They send me money towards my phone bill, towards a better plan that i just couldnt afford. Every one likes to be the hero. Its really not that much out of their pocket. 30 or 40 dollars to help a friend. Everyone has picture messaging so why shouldnt I? They can afford it. They feel good. Not the least bit taken advantage of.

Truth be told. I love facebook. Use it daily to communicate with the real people in my life. I love my blackberry. Know every feature inside and out. I pay 69.99 for unlimited everything with it. Yet I have a dozen or so guys sending me 30-40 dollars a month to help me pay for overages to be able to text them 3 or 4 pictures a week from it.

It is a scam or is it just smart marketing? I have my own personal fan club of sorts where for 30 dollars you get some pictures and the occasional message giving you that oh so personal contact you desire.

So if you find yourself jumping through hoops trying to help your naive friend, it cant hurt to step back and look at it objectively. Its very easy to be played if you allow yourself to be. If the person youre trying to help is having problems getting it ask yourself whats more logical. That shes really that techincally challenged or that she just doesnt want it as badly as you do,and just isnt saying that deadly word. No.
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#1 [url]

Jan 3 11 2:18 AM

to MJ:

Your post says so much on so many levels. And I hope that those who wouldn't want to take no for an answer, can see that there are times that going along with an insistant request isn't a form of manipulation or a lie. It's just the path of least resistance, in uncomfortable interactions.

to Reuters and all:

Let's all agree that unencumbered friendship between a model and guest is one of those rare things, as Reuters aknowledges.

In any path towards friendship it's a process of discovery and steps of gaining mutual trust. Particularly in this environment, for both parties rushing could certainly be imprudent or naive, or at least bypassing bumps in the road that any healthy friendship encounters.
Objectivity and common sense should be the guideposts along the way.
Respect should be the foundation. One important form of repect is respect for boundaries. What comes with this is some reluctance to intrude. Answering every "problem" is a form of intrusion, and as Camgirl would say a form of belittlement. A good sign of of mutual respect and real friendship is the ability to say no, or the avoidance of answering a question that one doesn't want to answer, and the other respecting such. Being said no to, and being ok with accepting no as an answer, is a sign of mutual respect, for people stepping out of the cam world. As time goes on, more may may be said about one's life. Things may be said, things may be volunteered or shared. It's suprising how things can evolve or what friends want to share.
In this business environment, the word no may be poison, but in the context of a freindship it is a heathly sign of respect. No is a persons free choice and yes then has the power and meaning of choice.
Just saying that in my experience, if there is a connection that should be pursued, it will evolve from the free will and desire for emotional intimacy from both of the people involved, and will grow past uncomforatable truths.
It seems to me, that easy answers doesn't allow for telling or hearing of the whole story, allow for mutuality, or genuine respect for the other persons' complete valididty.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#2 [url]

Jan 3 11 3:20 AM

Bravo... Miss Jane.

My respect for this to you. camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#3 [url]

Jan 3 11 3:23 AM

I like this part...

So even if youre reading this and thinking oh no, this has nothing to do with me or my situation, keep an open mind cause it just might.

This one too...

So if you find yourself jumping through hoops trying to help your naive friend, it cant hurt to step back and look at it objectively. Its very easy to be played if you allow yourself to be. If the person youre trying to help is having problems getting it ask yourself whats more logical. That shes really that techincally challenged or that she just doesnt want it as badly as you do,and just isnt saying that deadly word. No.

Thanks MJ.

Breeze


~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#4 [url]

Jan 3 11 3:25 AM

Wow MissJane..brilliant post.. Thank you ever so much...
A post like that one justifies this forum's existence....and is its very "raison d'etre."

I am afraid it will earn us the hatred of lots of many of your colleagues, to be sure.
But Hats off anyway MJ, from the the Ol' Madhatter...
Brava, Bravissima !

UL

P.S. BTW..I love FB too..lol

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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eclipse

Regular Newbie

Posts: 12

#6 [url]

Jan 3 11 10:18 AM

Since you are quite an expert in tricks, what do you think of this one:
(From the member POV) Imagine you have not been to the camsite for some months. You log back, and a model, with whom you have been chatting a bit and tipping in the past (not a lot, i'm kind of a freeloader), gives you passwords to her photo galleries, but insists on giving it for free.
Is this, in your professional opinion, a trick to make the member feel indebted to the model so that he will tip her more later, a model with poor marketing skills, or a genuine gift?
I know of similar tricks IRL, but even when I step back and look at it objectively, I fail to see the meaning of this one online.

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#7 [url]

Jan 3 11 12:30 PM

QUOTE (eclipse @ January 03, 2011 05:18 am)
Since you are quite an expert in tricks, what do you think of this one:
(From the member POV) Imagine you have not been to the camsite for some months. You log back, and a model, with whom you have been chatting a bit and tipping in the past (not a lot, i'm kind of a freeloader), gives you passwords to her photo galleries, but insists on giving it for free.
Is this, in your professional opinion, a trick to make the member feel indebted to the model so that he will tip her more later, a model with poor marketing skills, or a genuine gift?
I know of similar tricks IRL, but even when I step back and look at it objectively, I fail to see the meaning of this one online.

You've been gone a while, and now you're back to the camsites. She's endearing herself to you. Making that connection a little bit stronger again. So you don't run off and make it with another cam model. You tipped her before. You will again. If she can keep you around.

My opinion only. But it looks like smart marketing to me.

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#10 [url]

Jan 3 11 12:40 PM


hmm.. . sometimes if u refuse a little thing, might get a bigger one later.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#11 [url]

Jan 3 11 12:42 PM

I'll keep an open mind. Sort of. It's my version of an open mind. It looks closed.

I just PM'd a guy who for a year and a half had an ongoing relationship with an MFC model. He told me he must have spent or sent about $50K in those 18 months. Suddenly, two months ago she "disappeared" (his words). And he'd been to Bucharest more than once, met her, everything.

There's one more guy telling me, I know you don't drink, but you're drunk, so lie down in the gutter (if you've never had a drink and everyone is telling you that you're drunk then you should lie down in the gutter).

.
.
You stuck your forearm up the backside of an antelope
and you didn't know that you're going for a ride?

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#12 [url]

Jan 3 11 1:08 PM

QUOTE (Reuters @ January 03, 2011 07:42 am)
I'll keep an open mind. Sort of. It's my version of an open mind. It looks closed.

I just PM'd a guy who for a year and a half had an ongoing relationship with an MFC model. He told me he must have spent or sent about $50K in those 18 months. Suddenly, two months ago she "disappeared" (his words). And he'd been to Bucharest more than once, met her, everything..

And this is surprising to you. Probably many of the other members too. But be sure, there's not a model here who's surprised by that statement.

It's good to keep an open mind. And to try to recognize when someone's attempting to help you. Even when that help might seem more like a confrontation.

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#14 [url]

Jan 3 11 1:37 PM

QUOTE
There's one more guy telling me, I know you don't drink, but you're drunk, so lie down in the gutter (if you've never had a drink and everyone is telling you that you're drunk then you should lie down in the gutter).


That's exactly what we tried to tell u here too.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#15 [url]

Jan 3 11 3:18 PM

Reuters,

Wow

What a story. And from such an unexpected source.

The message isn't to lie in the gutter, it's just slow down before insisting to jump in a car to drive on the highway. This is what most of the confrontations here were about. Most of what was said here to you wasn't to make you wrong or lie in the gutter, just that you might not have enough information and perspective yet, to drive 100 miles an hour. Nothing wrong with handing the keys to someone else for a little while.

Thanks.

And I finally get to write a post, that's simply to the point.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#16 [url]

Jan 3 11 6:03 PM

Erhm, i begin to have a strange feeling...

Can we trust camgirls ?

1) No, they are always lying, everything they can say is to make you tip/take a pvt.
I think i have seen it in some pirate forums as a reason to hate them all.

2) Yes, but be careful...
Well, i can try to be careful but it seems like trying to help is already being stupid. Until now, i'm still not able to read in minds and last time i checked i don't have a Truth Detector embedded.

Just to say, if someone is lying to me, it's his/her fault. Sometimes, the posts here sounds like victim blaming. Yes, guys have to be careful when they listen a camgirl but stop repeating : "We had said it to you" when one did the error to trust the bad girl.

So the choice is either you advice every member "Don"t trust any camgirls", either you stop blaming every member who did it. Or to put it in more polemical words : Are camgirls soulless devils or just the usual human beings with who you can chat, laugh and you know... trust ?

And, when you get money with a lie, it's scam. It can be a little one if you just laughted at a non-funny joke or the big one with ill mother... You choose the limit, but if they can afford 30$ to help a friend, can you afford 30$ to be more honest ?

Trainer seems definatly too friendly lately...

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#17 [url]

Jan 3 11 6:14 PM

sysyphe, we told Reteurs just to be careful, not that for sure his model friend is scamming him. That's what I referred we gave him the same advice as his friend, because he had the opposite attitude of being suspicious - sometimes is better to be a little suspicious even it's not the case than being disappointed. Simple.

I'm not even saying all the models do that, but things are happening and it's amazing what members and men generally believe sometimes, as a woman I can observe that.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#18 [url]

Jan 3 11 7:14 PM

Sisyphe.... Miss Jane wrote it eloquently about the "game" I have described throughout this forum.

Trust is not based upon how much money a person tips to be their friend on a pornographic website. Same holds true for any type of romantic connection based upon the work these women perform.

Noname summed it up well and perfectly, mutual respect, which in my simple opinion, will never ever truly occur within the confines of a commercial relationship no matter how hard one attempts to prove otherwise. Anything to the contrary, is a selfish act of self betrayal as a person and an a undignified way to earn someones respect.

The lack of trust is a result of the propaganda and greed created by this business and its mantra.

A Dear friend of mine said" A camgirl wants only one thing from a person..... their money". That is the fundamentals of this business and they will never change in how they treat a customer, no matter what you believe and are paying for, simply, because you are paying for something, as I have written many times here, that never ever should have a price placed upon it.

Members will pay for anything as is evidenced so blatently on MFC but as well everywhere else on the websites these women work on. Once that commercial exchange is conducted, mutual respect is lost in either parties eyes.

How many times, I have had a personal conversation between a friend or past acquaintance of mine, who works or worked as a cam model,and they said these very words to me "You are not a customer of mine, that is why I respect and can consider you my true friend". You can all deduce why they said that and what that truly meant, within the hidden confines of each and every woman and their true views of others,who has ever entered the world of camming.

Never cross that threshold, members or guests for that matter, for all you are doing is paying to lose the respect, honor and integrity of others and of your own self too.

Something, no one seems to care about for the most part these days.

I respect camgirl, Miss Jane and other models here for their honesty and warnings to all active members that do find this forum.

Sorry, girls, but if they arrived on this forum they deserve to have it told straight up as Miss Jane has written here.

camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#19 [url]

Jan 3 11 8:59 PM

I don't understand why people treat it as if it is so black and white.

Either the camgirl is a lying bitch OR she is your best buddy.

There's a huge in between place. This is my job. I am not out to get customers, but if they put me in an uncomfortable position by asking me for things that go above and beyond my job or comfort level (like addresses, phone numbers, time off the site, etc.) and could compromise my safety, I have to come up with creative ways to lie. Because outright saying no would lose too much business and make people think I'm mean, and I'm not trying to be mean - I'm just trying to protect myself. Personally, I don't attempt to make extra money from the lies, but I don't blame girls who do and I don't think it makes them horribly manipulative or awful people. Most of these situations come from guys who cannot or will not respect the fact that it is a job. It is how we put food on the table.

I'm not attempting to present any sort of cogent argument here, just as a warning. But it reminds me of many experiences I've had dating guys or being around guys who came onto me and refused to take polite demurral or even a no as an answer, and I was put in a position where I had to lie about where I lived or about my phone or about any number of other things in order to get them to stop bothering me without outright confronting them and telling them to go away. (And I've even tried the outright confronting and telling them to go away and had it not work, but I try to avoid conflict at all costs, especially when it means losing a friend or a customer.)

Personally, I have always found it unfair and upsetting when people do this - overstep boundaries in such a way. It's disrespectful and it puts me in a difficult position. I personally would not (at least yet, maybe that'll change the longer I cam) use it as an opportunity to make more money off of a lie, but yes, I will lie if you start overstepping my boundaries and requesting me to contact you off-site, send you things, etc.

I understand that a large part of why men visit camgirls is because they want to feel a genuine connection and they want to feel appreciated, like they are my friend. And sometimes paying for it disrupts that feeling, for them. But I don't understand why people want to say camgirls are the manipulative ones for treating this like a job. We are the ones who are dealing with reality...men who overstep our boundaries and expect us to be something other than a service provider for money are the ones who are not in touch with reality. And many of them use their own outbursts of emotion and the threat of loss of business to manipulate passive-aggressively as well.

Edited to add: For me, I think mutual respect is possible - as long as both parties are respectful of the boundaries of the relationship. I have genuine respect and care for many of my customers who are kind people. (I'm also an extremely affectionate and demonstrative person more generally, and I have a lot of customers who think I am bullshitting when I tell them I genuinely give a shit about them, but it's the truth.) But when they overstep boundaries and expect things of me I cannot give and that I should not have to - they are the ones breaking respect. Not me. I have a lot of respect for my reflexologist. She has a lot of respect for me. I even care about her. We hang out sometimes. But if I started telling her I wanted her to come over to my house and do reflexology for free or that I expected her to fall in love with me and marry me and give me free treatments whenever, I would be the one breaching the relationship - not her. Not even if she exploited my act of overstepping the boundaries for awhile and let me pay her bills in exchange for treatments or whatever. I can understand her wanting to do that because she might not want to lose me as a customer - after all, I'm a regular customer. However, as long as I understand the boundaries of the professional relationship and that it's not fair to expect her to do things she shouldn't have to just because we care about each other as people, mutual respect is possible. I see camming as maybe not exactly but basically the same. If customers understand that despite the fact that I care about them, I still have bills to pay and I'm there to earn a paycheck in addition to being their agony aunt/sometimes best friend, all is well. It's when they start overstepping that that problems occur.

la muerte viene siempre / si se pobre o rebelde / no s cmo empezar / otro guerrillero! / ms pobreza, ms violencia /
estos son las consecuencias / no s donde va para / otra guerrillera! / las mujeres en la lucha no pueden parar

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#20 [url]

Jan 3 11 9:09 PM

very, very well said

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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