#21 [url]

Jan 3 11 9:31 PM

Thanks (if that was directed at me, hehe).

I'd like to add...I think most people don't intentionally come into these situations wanting to lie or manipulate or treat people badly (camgirls OR customers).

Personally, if I could pay my bills AND meet everyone's emotional/sexual needs for free, I would LOVE to. I love people. I love interacting with people and helping people. The absolute most difficult thing for me in the world is to set boundaries and say no to people, and I hate doing it with customers just as much or more than with anyone else in my life. I'd love to be able to be FB friends and send them whatever and call them, etc. etc. etc. But not only would I be out of a job (and one I need desperately), I'd also never anything left for myself or to myself, or for my family and other people I care about. My reflexologist is a great person and she loves helping people...I'm sure if she could pay her bills and do reflexology for free to help more people who can't afford it she would love to. But unfortunately then she'd have no time for paying customers and she wouldn't be able to pay her bills.

I also don't necessarily think most customers come into the situation or do things like this (or men in general with whom I've had this experience) TRYING to manipulate or disrespect or take advantage or waste the time of camgirls. But I think many of them just refuse to understand the mechanics of the relationship and the effects their actions/demands have, and in doing so, and in pushing us to give more than we should ever be expected to, they do cause harm.

la muerte viene siempre / si se pobre o rebelde / no s cmo empezar / otro guerrillero! / ms pobreza, ms violencia /
estos son las consecuencias / no s donde va para / otra guerrillera! / las mujeres en la lucha no pueden parar

Quote    Reply   

#22 [url]

Jan 3 11 10:49 PM

yes, to you

and exactly, also most people do live in the grey area

I think some people don't even consider that insisting to help is an intrusion. And that accepting help is, all things being equal, taking a little away from oneself. These non-transaction transactions should be treated very carefully.

I think the care that should be taken, is as much about the care to never diminish a persons dignity and autonomy.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

Quote    Reply   

#23 [url]

Jan 4 11 12:17 AM

I am posting this follow up with the permission of a model here. It is a PM I sent to them after their post here, where I did not wish to take control in someone elses thread nor to be overbearing.



"I am writing you this pm simply because I agree with you totally. I just do not believe your expectation of mutual respect and boundaries can be fully accomplished.

As tough as I am towards this business, I still have respect for people as human beings. Nevertheless, from what I previously experienced when I was a paying customer and now,after some disastrous past experiences personally,and from speaking with many models, especially those from poorer countries, that they do tend to create the atmosphere of a potential relationship or romantic connection to increase their earnings. The lure of a more intimate relationship considered friendship or romance to members is quite addicting to many.

Furthermore, many many members, who are male seem to feel that once they have paid for an emotional sexual service that in their minds, many feel more is to be expected from you girls. Perhaps, it is societies programming of men as being the bread winners for so long, or that these high rollers feel they are fat cats or worth something "extra" that they are entitled to more.

I highly doubt that what you hope for in boundaries within this work, will ever become commonplace or for many to learn mutual respect within the confines of your jobs.

Anyway, thank you and to all the other models for attempting to keep things on the up and up and keep members in some sort of check.

If they end up on this forum they deserve to be treated with informative honest views from you gals and to know what it is all about. I thank you all for your candor and integrity."

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   

#24 [url]

Jan 4 11 12:50 AM

& I'll post what I responded to TRAINER...because I think we agree on this subject far more than we disagree, hehe.

QUOTE
I think if you added this as a reply to the thread it would be very beneficial.

I agree that it's very difficult (and maybe impossible) for men to be able to maintain the boundaries and respect necessary for a healthy mutual business relationship. It's a huge, huge problem. It's the single most irritating thing as a camgirl, for me - to have to lie because men refuse to respect that this is my job, whether I like them or not (and often I do like them as people). It's something I would like to see change, and maybe if we keep talking about this members/customers who come here will become more educated about what it's like from the model's perspective and why boundaries are necessary - because it is our job. But no...I don't have any wild expectations of men suddenly becoming less deluded or putting less pressure on us, LOL. It's something I've experienced offline and away from work for my entire life (men expecting more from me emotionally and physically than I would like to give or should be expected to give) and I think it's a problem many women have that just carries over into camming so much because of the conditions of the work.

la muerte viene siempre / si se pobre o rebelde / no s cmo empezar / otro guerrillero! / ms pobreza, ms violencia /
estos son las consecuencias / no s donde va para / otra guerrillera! / las mujeres en la lucha no pueden parar

Quote    Reply   

#25 [url]

Jan 4 11 11:15 AM

I have waited a little to answer. I had planned a longer text (yes, even longer than this one) with lots of jokes but i tried to make it shorter.

- What is your job as camgirl ?
Camgirls provide a sex service - So you will have to disappoint lots of customers who search for something else.
Camgirls sell their time - Hum, the closest defintion i think. Time to talk, to dance or something else. No, i don't believe in magic titty power, i'm not always sure all camgirls deserve all the money they earn (but the definition of the income one deserves is always controversial). Still, i don't see any reason to lie about it even if it means you will have to disappoint members who search for friendship or love.
Camgirls sell fantasy - Here comes a justification of the lies. But i never saw a warning about it on sites. I forgot, it's the fault of members who are not able to read between the lines and to see how foulish they are. And what if a girl see a member clearly believe in this fantasy ? Does she still sell fantasy or just lies ?

- Why have you chosen to lie ?
To survive as camgirl - Hey come on, "most of camgirls earn more than their customers (if not they should change job)".
To protect your intimacy - Hum, believe me or not, but i have seen some camgirls who said "No, i don't answer this question"... Of course, there are always extreme cases where even i can understand a lie .
To earn more - Well, in this world, you will always earn more if you lie or you cheat, but that's not my definition of a right thing to do.

Tell the truth is difficult. It is often more annoying than a little lie. It may also hurt the others and even your income. Nobody said to act right would be easy.

Sometimes, it sounds like members and camgirls are 2 different kinds of human beings and that their worlds should/could/would never be mixed.
Once a camgirl have seen you as a customer, it's forever - It sounds like the "friend-zone" of some seduction forums. Probably a part of truth but also a part of overgeneralizing. Btw, it's me or i have seen some guys in real life buying a drink/a dinner/flowers to girls to try to impress them ?
Relations are impossible between camgirls and members - I already said it but, when you have internet, different cultures and long distance in a relation, you don't need to add a cam to make it already almost impossible.

I'm sorry if i hurt anyone, and i know there is a part of "bad faith" in my sentences but it sounds too often like a chat here, the camgirls seems always right. Lying to someone to protect your intimacy, i don't think it's the best solution but i can understand, lying to someone and get 30$ per month from him for a false reason, it's scam, whatever you can say.

Quote    Reply   

#26 [url]

Jan 4 11 1:02 PM

QUOTE (sisyphe @ January 04, 2011 11:15 am)


- What is your job as camgirl ?
Camgirls provide a sex service - So you will have to disappoint lots of customers who search for something else.
Camgirls sell their time - Hum, the closest defintion i think. Time to talk, to dance or something else. No, i don't believe in magic titty power, i'm not always sure all camgirls deserve all the money they earn (but the definition of the income one deserves is always controversial). Still, i don't see any reason to lie about it even if it means you will have to disappoint members who search for friendship or love.
Camgirls sell fantasy - Here comes a justification of the lies. But i never saw a warning about it on sites. I forgot, it's the fault of members who are not able to read between the lines and to see how foul they are.
Sometimes, it sounds like members and camgirls are 2 different kinds of human beings and that their worlds should/could/would never be mixed.
Once a camgirl have seen you as a customer, it's forever -


Sisyphe I have replied and commented on your post in new thread.
Look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...t=0&#entry17242
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

Quote    Reply   

#27 [url]

Jan 4 11 4:08 PM

i agree with what sysyphe said. Besides the deserving part -"i'm not always sure all camgirls deserve all the money they earn "
I think everybody deserves actually what they earn, there is no "not deserving" this or that. As long as they stay on cam and work and the money don't fall from sky, all the cam girls deserve what they earn, especially because,. according to your definition, it's a per per time biz. So if a model wouldnt deserve what she earned than she wouldnt have earned, she would probably have to lower her price in order to have clients, and as long as the client payed how much she charged it means the client considered it deserves to pay the specific rate. Some might consider it's not worth it and won't pay - it's a subjective choice, based on subjective tastes or based on personal reasons (salary, decision to spend a specific amount on this or not). A model might "deserve" somebody's money and not "deserve" other's money (being them more or less), she might deserve the pay for a specific service she provide to a specific person.
In marketing it is said that there is no price too big - only not the right costumer. So besides the per minute biz is an also target focused biz and like in any other markets, none cant cover the all the niches.

It's not the member's fault for 'not reading between lines" but for not keeping in mind they stepped into an world of fantasy. And it is an warning - first the over 18 only warning - no, it's not there only because of the sexual side. it's considered u have to be adult in order to decide how you spend your money from your credit card with all the other consequences near. And second, in terms of services it is said that it's forbidden to exchange contact with the models (yahoo, phone number etc), it's forbidden to date the model, and any outside contact the members do it it's on their own responsibility and the site is not responsible for any complain in that case.

So when a guy want to push the bounds, try to contact the model, even disregarding her privacy and don't stick with the site's terms and conditions, he already broke the rules and he assumed what can happen after.

For instance in shows performed on the site's platform if a member is not happy with the service a model provided he can charge back. ( some bad guys take advantages of that, they come every day and spend hours with girls, obviously enjoying and then charge back and the model gets 0 money for her time - most sites dont cover the loss for the models. Here is where the good guys sometimes pay even for what they dont get. Sounds familiar? Check the bank system - it works exactly the same. There are bad guys who dont pay and leave you with huge loss and good guys that pay the "risk" commission near the normal pay, to cover the loss cause by others, the bad costumers. Is it fair? no, it's banking, and they rise the shoulders saying "don't take it personally, it's how the system works" The clients are the flock, so nothing personal. You should know that since you have a credits card)

If he disregarded the warning and sent her money directly, he cant get them back, logically. Of course, most don't read the terms, no wonder why you didnt even know they exist, or those who read it, they choose to ignore them and the choice is the key world. Why? Because you are over 18 and with freedom comes the responsibility too.

I think the warning is enough, because like in any marketing when you actually want to sell something you present it in a nice package. Don't expect a knives seller to tell you from the beginning " you could cut your fingers with this" - it is just said " not to be used by children before X years", you wont see on a Mc Donalds written nicely, with lights " eating too much here will make you very fat and can cause you heart attack in few years if you come constantly"instead they will post tasty images with chicken that open the appetite.. So don't expect the sites to post a big banner with "Some models might scam you" -it owuldnt be productive, not attractive and don't up the sells. Maybe most dont even want to read that when they have a boner. It's the each's common sense in everything. You have the money, spend them wisely.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

Quote    Reply   

#28 [url]

Jan 4 11 6:05 PM

I am going to add some observations here.

The mutual respect between the model and the member is a very important thing to maintain and is usually easy to break or cross that boundary.

Once a model crosses the rules and boundaries many models here are warning about, she invites a situation and/or relationship that extends beyond the commercial business of this all, and may result in something unwanted or unexpected.

The models here want to be safe and by keeping their privacy in tact maintains not only their safety but avoids problems that can affect their jobs and earnings.

For those that do, it is their choice and at their own risks. Some do it to increase their incomes privately, while others do it because they are seeking something more personal or have ulterior motivations, and invite these types of relationships.

For the member who attempts to cross the mutual respect boundary of this world, they appear to be expecting sexual meetings, propose marriage or gf/bf relationships, based upon the flirtatious and the sexual nature of the business.

It is up to each individuals personal moral and business ethics to decide what they are seeking, what they allow and want out of this work. For some, the models invite it, which can create issues with other models or colleagues whom are against it.It promotes the potential idea or possibility of more than just the entertainment aspect of it all within a members mind that visits these websites

Sisyphe... should the blame be placed upon the camgirl alone? No, unless they are looking for something they have not thought through fully.
Is the blame solely the members faults, no again.

It is everyone's fault because someone broke the code of business ethics along the line which creates the constant search for more that MissJane, and others here are looking to avoid or have learned how to soften or deal with it from members.

From past experience, I have had models ask me to help them pay for rent, or help them with this or that. I have had one attempt to provide shows for me on the pretense that we are good friends. I declined, because I did not think paying for a show to be a friend of theirs was something that I personally felt friendship was all about.

I have had models act like they have some special relationship romantically to fill their pockets and bank accounts.

I have had some use all sorts of devious romantic or friendship promises and/or expectations to line their pockets.

On the other hand, I have sent some flowers. I also have financially helped a couple of good friends respecting theirs and mine mutual respect boundaries. I will add that we are good friends, and have no commercial relationship within their jobs.

Yes, I know some of you may think I am being naive or foolish, or being ripped off, not really, I am being a good friend to someone who happened to need assistance. For those very few, we both respect each other and consider each other like brother and sister. We have both earned each others trust and have a friendship that rivals any that I have had with good friends I have living near me or for many years.

If they want to repay my kindness or friendship they will if they can, if not I will not make a huge fuss over it.

But I do understand how models want to keep things business like and safe but I do not believe that mutual respect can be maintained when people are paying for sexual entertainment.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   
avatar

bexar

Regular Newbie

Posts: 11

#29 [url]

Jan 5 11 6:13 AM

QUOTE (MissJane @ January 02, 2011 02:15 pm)
The worst thing a camgirl can say to anyone- a member, a friend, anyone who affects her earnings is the word no. You never say no. If you have to, you say it in other creative ways, where it seems like a yes but it really is a no.

What if a member asks you straight-up if you are lying? Is this the one exception for the word "no?" Sorry if the answer is somewhere in this thread or others. I would just like to know, do you lie when a member asks if you are lying?

Quote    Reply   

#30 [url]

Jan 5 11 7:44 AM

QUOTE (bexar @ January 05, 2011 06:13 am)
QUOTE (MissJane @ January 02, 2011 02:15 pm)
The worst thing a camgirl can say to anyone- a member, a friend, anyone who affects her earnings is the word no. You never say no. If you have to, you say it in other creative ways, where it seems like a yes but it really is a no.

What if a member asks you straight-up if you are lying? Is this the one exception for the word "no?" Sorry if the answer is somewhere in this thread or others. I would just like to know, do you lie when a member asks if you are lying?

Thats a really hard question to answer because there are so many variables.. the best way to look at it is that a model is nothing more then an attractive 'yes man' or rather yes woman.

Sometimes the yeses will be genuine other times theyre not.. But to burst someones bubble like that? to tell them straightup Ive just been yesing you all along cause thats whats youre paying me for, but the truth is no, i dont think youre attractive, or smart , so those were all lies but i do think youre kind of funny sometimes, so that part was the truth- mmm. It would be sort of like commiting career suicide. Can almost guarentee the client wont be a client anymore after that. And a bitter disgruntled client can be a dangerous thing.

Heres the thing- Yes-men, and camgirls for that matter- will never quite give you what you want, but they do have a way of giving you what you ask for.

Quote    Reply   

#31 [url]

Jan 5 11 1:23 PM

I think I'm in the middle between saying yes or no.
I'm not into saying "yes' to guys who want a virtual girlfriend-boyfriend relationship, not because of my honest reasons, but because I dont want them too attached and have fans on my back when I dont want to. And id never say I'm single (because i think that makes me "available" in their eyes and I dont like that - again, my choice), Let's face it - it's the members stereotypes for they imagine some things:

1. working in an adult field aka she's sure a whore willing to do anything for money ( same idea have silly fans about a porn star who propose her to do "movies together" and that shows they know nothing about the porn industry. Why would a famous porn star would do sex with a fan just because he says he has a big cock??? )

2. they are more romantic and think the model has a pathetic life or no life besides camming and they want to "save her" and have a dream relationship for the model would be grateful forever. And of course she's single because "otherwise she wouldnt work on cam" (really? on who's planet? and who the members think they are to think they know about the personal life of someone, and of course, they are all experts in relationships, no question about that)

Personally I'm more into private minutes oriented, (while I'm honest in free chat and sometimes even really mean) But Id never say my location, personal details and if the guy is asking in private something I wouldnt do, I wouldnt say "no" but stretch out the time in private as much as I can, and if he spends enough, it's worth the effort to fake it so he leaves happy.

And yes, this is absolutely correct, I think that:

QUOTE
Hey come on, "most of camgirls earn more than their customers (if not they should change job)"

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

Quote    Reply   

#32 [url]

Jan 5 11 2:03 PM

QUOTE
And yes, this is absolutely correct, I think that:

QUOTE 
Hey come on, "most of camgirls earn more than their customers (if not they should change job)" 


If the performer never took her clothes off, worked in a studio, and lived with her family, she could get by on say 600 EU a month in RO. Wouldn't that be the exception, to making more than their customers?

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

Quote    Reply   

#33 [url]

Jan 5 11 2:10 PM

and they should change the job in this case ( and there are many reasons for that) or do something to up her earnings.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

Quote    Reply   

#34 [url]

Jan 5 11 3:52 PM

Camgirl and Miss Jane....

So how do you ladies feel about a woman who works as a cam model initiating the "first contact" with a member(paying or non paying)?

How does a member truly find the real truth of this woman's real motivation when they make the first move toward furthering a relationship beyond the commercial aspect of your work?

I believe I know your answers, but maybe for others reading here, it might be beneficial for both sides.


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   

#35 [url]

Jan 5 11 3:56 PM

Longer hours, and more fans that enjoy playing with the performer, as is, can and does increase the earnings. Guess I'm just saying 600 to maybe 1000 EU a month, might be enough for some in RO?

She tells me this is enough, and yes she would prefer to change jobs and you are right (there are many reasons for that).

No judgements here. Not even sure why I am posting this. Except to say, all performers are not making more than customers, and are ok with that.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

Quote    Reply   

#36 [url]

Jan 5 11 4:33 PM

working on more sites, starting from home in order to not share 50/50 with the studio, and other tips she can find in Models only area, including sites reviews and other models opinions.

QUOTE
might be enough for some in RO?


Depends what you mean by "enough".
To survive, yes, might be enough, to feel good, for some yes, for others no.
Working in an adult field shouldnt mean only subsistence earnings, but higher, to justify the exposure. Either she gets naked on cam or not she can still be recorded, posted, risking the image for the future etc so if she doesnt earn enough and not doing because she likes to be a cam girl, she should up her sales in order to start a more profitable business for her.
What justifies the higher than normal salary, dont matter where you live, is that even the garbage caring employees have an "extra shame fee" so they actually earn higher than regular people (of course, not highest). So if u have a job as doctor or nurse for instance where you have a specific professional status even you don't earn much, as cam model it's not a job to add it on CV or to invest in future other than financially, so yes, the earnings have to be higher. Many models already had to choose between professional status and financial status - if you have none, it's not justified.
The first thing to do when a model who stepped into the cam work is to put everything in balance and play her cards smart.
So in case of your friend, if she can have another job earning 400 euros/month it's not worth remaining in cam work for extra 200 euros only, unless she really enjoys it. But when a model earns few good thousands and she is offered a job of 400/month, she wont even think about quit working on cam if she's in already.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

Quote    Reply   

#37 [url]

Jan 5 11 5:08 PM

I neglected to say that she had a full time job, until recently. Did 40 hours at studio and same at job. Studio work didn't pay much but, was way to pay off an old loan. She didn't expect the layoff. Still she's getting by.
And expossure wasn't an issue, or so she calculated. Recently got very upset that someone local came to her site, but got over it.
But with all the layoffs, cutbacks, and crisis, there don't seem to be options as before. Some inertia, I think, some difficulty in finding other work she says.
Not much to say, is what it is. Makes the best of it, engages with a lot of customers, gets by. Living in the grey area. Better job (for her) will come along some day.
Am I missing something? Atypical but not uncommon I think.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

Quote    Reply   

#38 [url]

Jan 5 11 6:08 PM

I suppose everyone has different ideas of whats enough, if you live with family and need no more then 600 EU a month- then okay. Camgirl is right with the risks and the stigma attached to the work it doesnt seem worth it for that little but not everyone sees the risks the same way. Especially younger girls. They tend to have a limited vision of the future.

the only thing I find odd in you posts is that shes able to work at a studio and not bring in a lot of money. Usually studios wouldnt tolerate that.

Quote    Reply   

#39 [url]

Jan 5 11 6:29 PM

there are studios based on quality and other based on quantity. Those based on quantity mostly, dont really care if a certain % of models dont earn much, because they have a good profit with all the models they have (of course, if she wouldnt do anything, probably she'd get fired, but that's because there are other reasons a model earn close to 0 - WU money received, talking on yahoo instead of working etc). They also base on "u never know when a model that earn low find a good costumer that start to spend a lot and make bank" (it happened before), the bad part is the tthe studios like that dont put any effort in helping the models to earn more, so generally, they dont really care, thats why they tolerate that.
In Romania the competition between studios is high, so if a studio tells her she's not doing enough to stay, she can easily find another, so it's that " why go to others and do money there, even little?"

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

Quote    Reply   

#40 [url]

Jan 5 11 6:30 PM

MJ, yes, I agree
but that is her end, the net after everything deducted
a smaller studio, the rest of the girls doing about the same
I would have assumed over 1000 EU a a month net to girl, not less than
but I was told a little less than, which is still more than most jobs there
but she says its still enough (she eats a lot of homemade soup)

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

Quote    Reply   
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help