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Jan 20 07 11:43 PM

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This is the quote from UL's post 'why are we here'

Well, we did this mainly to create a central web-site for collecting information on the growth of the video chat industry in Europe – an industry that employs mainly students as “studio cam-girls” and "cam-guys" more often than it does independent “freelance” models. But all men and women are welcome here.

Maybe i dont understand something here....?

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#1 [url]

Jan 21 07 12:45 AM

I am going to try to keep this 'short', but with me....

Just adding to delfina's statement.

Recently there has been an unundation of prostitution, human trafficking, sex trafficking, etc.etc. 'information' posts. I know I am -not- an admin/moderator or whatever here. I am not one to dictate what can be posted or not, and I don't want to be, but I see in my 'restricted status' (I mean I have no clue on what the model/restricted area posts are about) fewer and fewer posts by actual models since this time.

Maybe this assumption is wrong, but I do not in anyway think models would think of themselves as prostitutes (no matter what newpapers print about 'cyber-prostitution'), they are not crossing borders or being forced against their wills to do these jobs. If you think the internet as 'crossing borders' of trafficking, then wouldn't any pics of people sent across internet be 'human trafficking' and any sexual pics be 'sex trafficking'. Quite absurd...

Men cannot touch them, it is NOT prostitution. This isn't even like strip club, where the customers are present and in certain places allowed to grope and feel the dancers. The women are relatively safe. Only crazy guests that get real information from them and go after models or the police in countries where it is illegal are harmful to the models.

Is this forum starting to alienate the very people it is trying to get to come here and communicate? I know some think it is all linked and interconnected, people paying for something sexual. But if the models cannot feel comfortable here. If what they read has no bearing on their life, or if they feel like what is being posted is disrespectful, by calling them 'ho' and 'meat', is it serving the purpose for which it was intended? Talking here like the stupid jerks and beggars do in chat is probably not the best way to keep our model friends coming here.

And while I myself find it interesting on other 'guests' experiences such as Wanker, Vaio, Trainer, Tim, etc... I don't see myself staying if it becomes a 'guys club'. I gave my story hoping some might understand. But now I come here and post in maybe a vain and impossible attempt to help models. If there are no models to help, I don't see a point.

-vodka

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#2 [url]

Jan 21 07 1:21 AM

well what can i add here except that i agree with every vodka's word? Seems like this site has just not enough topics to discuss...Yes yes i agree that its also model's fault but still...should we make it full of discussions of politics, newspapers and other atuff? And as far as its still Cam Girl Notes and not Saywhateveryouwant Notes i always try to find connection to cam models work in every post...and from this point posts about prostitution looks not good at all to me...But seems like UL has big interests in this branch of sex work..then what about Prostitutes Notes?

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#3 [url]

Jan 21 07 1:36 AM

This forum became just a bit broader then we thought at first, you might be surprised, but some things are linked together with eachother, if some things posted on here isn't related at all with their own situation, does'nt say, it doesn't exist at all, that's what i can say about it, mostly those post are made in the "situation in ......" topics, but you are right about it, it's not all about the cam modeling thing only there only, perhaps UncleLewis can explain this better?

Of course we are here to help models, but above all, this is a information forum.
That most models are too afraid to post anything on here, or even register, has always been the main problem for us, lol... It seems dear vodka, that it has something to do, with taking time in a certain place, before some models seems to move, and you all know we don't do that, at least i speak for myself,
sorry to sound in a ironically way

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#4 [url]

Jan 21 07 1:47 AM

i understand ur point of view Tripper...but still if its information site why its called Cam Girl Notes and not Informationabout everything? Btw about models...i know few of them who knows about the site and sometimes reading some posts...but seems to me its not too interesting for them... Dont know exactly why. And also about prostitution and sex traffiking...Who doesnt know about all this? so many articles in newspapers and programs on tv...Even from informative point i dont find much new in these articles which were posted...

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#5 [url]

Jan 21 07 2:21 AM

Well the "models only restricted area" was supposed to give models info related to their cam modeling job, just think about "kill Bill" and such kind of issues...
Of course if some models only come on this forum as a guest, they can't see that part/area of the forum, that's the problem. And then i can understand, why they think it's no use for them...

I agree in it, that this forum now has become a gentlemen chatting place, which is not bad at all, bcs you have to remember, we are the ones who are visiting you.. i think by reading the post of us here, learns you a lot about some things..

All i can say about sex trafficing, i myself, made those posts at the very beginning of this forum, last year april.. I knew a Ukr model who was planning to go to Japan together with her little son/baby, it makes you kind of wonder about some things, i must say. That's why i searched for info, and posted that on here, i never heard from her again, i supose she really went there. Anyways, this is just an information forum about every topic, with a lot of space to create own topics, thoughts etc. People must understand, that they can take that space, it's really simple, just create a topic/post

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#6 [url]

Jan 21 07 2:28 AM

ok ill think about starting topics about keeping pets, favourite music, how to survive on womens days and -ohhh yesss! - what cosmetics is the best

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#7 [url]

Jan 21 07 2:32 AM

Well, I'm not in the middle of it all...

I'm not a college girl, camming for Gucci and Prada, and for a lark.

And I'm not one of the second group of models, those doing it for years, for a living.

I'm not leaving a studio after 8 hours on cam and only a few or no shows, and I still must find money for my rent and food.

I'm not getting a smooth pitch of easy money from a real pimp, not a web pimp, as I'm shivering on a bus stop.

But to me, comparing camming to real prostitution is reminiscent of the bunch in the States back in the '70s that tried to make the case that marijuana use led to heroin addiction. As in that instance, yes, there is some cross-pollination but it's not the general rule.

When we were doing research on other organizations in preparation for our still-born Alternatives for On-line Entertainers Foundation, we found that the real prostitutes didn't think camming was even close.

So are these articles germane? I guess UL thinks so, and they may be of some assistance to that cold, hungry girl on the bus stop whose resolve is wavering.

If she ever sees them.

And she may not see them if she doesn't visit here.

One of the rudimentary principles of Web site design is that if you want people to visit, you have to have content. And if you want people to visit often, that content must be continually updated. Continually means daily, and I noticed that there were three days last week when nothing new was posted.

Sure, my threads about a theme song and joking with word definitions may be silly to some. But to others, it's fun, and it is new content. And even if someone doesn't post their own song, they may come back to see what others have posted.

And then they may also read about the police raids on cam studios, and get some news they can use.

And in the "Language Lab" thread, I'm offering to give some serious help with English. More content, and (if somebody ever asks a question) more real assistance.

And yes, I am a little disappointed that more models don't post in the Members section. Without their input, we're only guessing about what help we may be able to provide...

Wanker

Three pieces of advice for a happy life:
* Never eat at a place named Mom's.
* Never play cards with a man named Doc.
* Never get in a relationship with someone whose problems are worse than your own.
--Anon.

"Ganja is the true Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - be wasted to be saved!"

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you.
This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
--Mark Twain

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#8 [url]

Jan 21 07 2:46 AM

QUOTE (delfina @ January 21, 2007 03:28 am)
ok ill think about starting topics about keeping pets, favourite music, how to survive on womens days and -ohhh yesss! - what cosmetics is the best

I am looking foreward to it, we all do, i think...

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#9 [url]

Jan 21 07 4:05 AM


Well what is the pertinence of posting the article that Froglover found and translated?
Well as a former Ukrainain model wrote me recently " the Ukraine is the only country in Europe where appearing on line as a cam model is treated as a criminal matter for the police to handle and placed in the same category as other kinds of illegal sex work. Everywhere else it's at most matter for the tax authorities who are concerned more about tax evasion by underground studios than they are about the metaphysics of "virutal prostitution." But not in the Ukraine....
Allow me to quote myself on this.

QUOTE

Faced with the recent closing of 4 Studios by the police and the prosecution of Studio Admins by the legal authorities in the Ukraine, the question of what Video Chat hostesses really do while working online is no longer just an academic question - for me at least.

The Admins in Kiev are charged with the "propagation of pornography production" and running an "Internet Bordello" where they recruited top students from prestige universities to be cam-models and service the sexual needs of foreign clients. The American owner of the Kyiv Studio is being apparently pursued in the US on a charge of "Human Trafficking."

So we might well ask: "Do these charges make any sense? And if not, Why not?"


What then is the pertinence of all the articles posted here about trafficking and the police closing of both cam studios and bordellos.. for the Ukraine...? They are harrowing stories of human dramas that say alot about both sexual attitudes and the status of women in post Communist Ukraine. But they should concern us directly because this constitutes the legal basis of prosecuting studio owners and admins, and detaining cam models, harassing them for weeks - not to mention stealing their money and personal property like cell phones and such.

So what's especially worthy of note in this offending article? Well, for one thing, the descriptions of police behavior. The treatment by the Ukrainian Militiamen of the common street prostitutes in Odessa and the way they treated the young cam models they arrested in Kyiv and Odessa this past year seem to me to be very similar.. Common points include the detention of suspects until the necessary payoffs are made - in money or in kind - the theft of personal property and money.. and the assumption that women sex workers have "no rights" worth respecting - so they can be paraded in the streets in front of the press and their cameras.

The Ukrainian police don't seem to discriminate between one kind of commercial sex work - camming - and the other kinds... and their official view of it as "internet prostitution" has been picked up and echoed in the popular press... But I guess popular perceptions of cam work is of no relevance to the cam models working in Kyiv, Odessa or the other four cities where police raids have occured this year?

This administrative and legal redefintion of camming as "virtual prostitution" will form the basis of the political consensus in the Ukraine that allows for both future police raids and for the on-going extortion of payoffs..and gratutious violence and insult- until somebody contests the official point of view about its inherent illegality and immorality. This debate is wide open everywhere else in Europe.. but not the Ukraine?

This is something that that street girls in Odessa have started to do by forming their association to agitate for some protection from the police pressure on them.
But of course, they are just common whores so their problems are their own, I guess and not worthy of our notice here...?

If you cannot see the connection between one pattern of police repression and the campaign to shut down your studios...then fine..
Please be my guest and yes, let's talk all talk about our pets instead.

My pet is a 70 pound Gordon Setter hound named Lola who likes to chase young bears up trees.. What about yours?

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#10 [url]

Jan 21 07 4:33 AM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ January 21, 2007 04:05 am)
But of course, they are just common whores so their problems are their own, I guess and not worthy of our notice here...?

Dont interpretate my words plz UL.... i just mentioned that this site is NOT about prostitutes....at least i guess so.. sure prostitutes r people too and maybe they deserve their forum too...but i wouldnt like to take part in it as i dont have experience in that question.
And u know UL sence of humour is not so bad thing sometimes....

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#11 [url]

Jan 21 07 4:53 AM

cool.gif
I try to find a sense of humor in everything I write about..
And I have never said that I agree that camming has anything to do with "actual prostitution.."
But if the press say it is.. and the police and courts then act on that perception.. then there's a problem that leads to all sorts of other bad things.. from mafia penetration of the industry to constant police pressure for payoffs as the condition of studios staying in operation...
Thats funny.. up to a point, but when people start to go to jail? and have their equipment and monies seized ? Then it's not a laughing matter.

But here's where you and I agree.. Models must make this forum their own.
And post their own questions and open topics...and challenge the misperceptions and mis-statements of the outsiders here who don't know this experience from the inside.. As you have started to do and hopefully will continue to do.
The more other models follow your example Delfina, the more other forum members will find themselves responding to you - rather than you responding to us. Which is how things should be.


UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#12 [url]

Jan 21 07 5:00 AM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ January 21, 2007 04:53 am)
But if the press say it is.. and the police and courts then act on that perception.. then there's a problem that leads to all sorts of other bad things.. from mafia penetration of the industry to constant police pressure for payoffs as the condition of studios staying in operation...

Sorry...I still dont see here anything that would assure that information of prostitution work is useful for cam models and all who care for them and their problems....But of course ure a Doc and u know better and im just a 'cam-ho'

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#13 [url]

Jan 21 07 5:03 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmm....

Battle lines are being drawn, it seems .

I guess I'll throw in my $0.02. When I joined this forum originally, I thought it was a really great idea. A place for cam models to discuss the ins and outs of the industry--not a recruiting zone, not a "sexy" forum, but a place for them to try to make the best of their occupation.

It's become an entirely different beast.

90% of the posts on here are from members. Maybe it's intimidating to models...maybe there's not a demand for such a forum...I don't know. But something is clearly wrong. In my opinion (like vodka, I'm not an admin or mod), posts should be relevant and focused toward the girls...not the group of customers that is currently posting. Really, guys, your tales of intrigue over a webcam are interesting...and it's great for the prostitutes in Ukraine to unionize, I'm proud of them, really...but it's not the purpose of this place. Maybe we should rename it "Cam-Customer Notes and Information about the Sex Trade"?

These are just my opinions....maybe focus it more on the models than the customers. Publicize it to the models. Give them control...something they aren't allowed in the studios.

If models don't post and join, then the forum has failed.

YMMV, IMHO, etc. etc....my opinions.
-vishbar

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#14 [url]

Jan 21 07 5:09 AM



Hey for what it's worth.. The article in question here today was found by a former model who thought it worth translating...and having posted....
I am a doc, true.. but Delfina, you are the "local country expert" here.
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#15 [url]

Jan 21 07 5:38 AM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ January 21, 2007 05:09 am)


Hey for what it's worth.. The article in question here today was found by a former model who thought it worth translating...and having posted....
I am a doc, true.. but Delfina, you are the "local country expert" here.
UL

Ok....Then i hope maybe this model will answer my questions

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#16 [url]

Jan 21 07 7:01 AM

QUOTE (vishbar @ January 21, 2007 06:03 am)
Hmmmmmmmmmm....

Battle lines are being drawn, it seems  .

I guess I'll throw in my $0.02.  When I joined this forum originally, I thought it was a really great idea.  A place for cam models to discuss the ins and outs of the industry--not a recruiting zone, not a "sexy" forum, but a place for them to try to make the best of their occupation.

It's become an entirely different beast.

90% of the posts on here are from members.  Maybe it's intimidating to models...maybe there's not a demand for such a forum...I don't know.  But something is clearly wrong.  In my opinion (like vodka, I'm not an admin or mod), posts should be relevant and focused toward the girls...not the group of customers that is currently posting.  Really, guys, your tales of intrigue over a webcam are interesting...and it's great for the prostitutes in Ukraine to unionize, I'm proud of them, really...but it's not the purpose of this place.  Maybe we should rename it "Cam-Customer Notes and Information about the Sex Trade"?

These are just my opinions....maybe focus it more on the models than the customers.   Publicize it to the models.  Give them control...something they aren't allowed in the studios.

If models don't post and join, then the forum has failed.

YMMV, IMHO, etc. etc....my opinions.
-vishbar

Oh yeah dear vishbar and vodka, we all forget about the "confessions" posts by some members on here? to justify their pvt takings? sorry but you both speak against your own posts. There are different forums/topics on this forum people, different subjects.., all people deserve an place here.., you both should know very well... It's not you who can decide when or if the forum has failed, to compare it to your own american self interest morale, vishbar.. thanks the lord for that...

By the way, there is the "models 2 models area", it is in control by another model, but again, yes they have to register to see that part of the forum. When a model visits this forum, only as a guest, i can imagine that she would be overwhelmed by the number of posts of guys...

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#17 [url]

Jan 21 07 8:15 AM

QUOTE (Supernova @ January 21, 2007 07:01 am)
QUOTE (vishbar @ January 21, 2007 06:03 am)
Hmmmmmmmmmm....

Battle lines are being drawn, it seems  .

I guess I'll throw in my $0.02.  When I joined this forum originally, I thought it was a really great idea.  A place for cam models to discuss the ins and outs of the industry--not a recruiting zone, not a "sexy" forum, but a place for them to try to make the best of their occupation.

It's become an entirely different beast.

90% of the posts on here are from members.  Maybe it's intimidating to models...maybe there's not a demand for such a forum...I don't know.  But something is clearly wrong.  In my opinion (like vodka, I'm not an admin or mod), posts should be relevant and focused toward the girls...not the group of customers that is currently posting.  Really, guys, your tales of intrigue over a webcam are interesting...and it's great for the prostitutes in Ukraine to unionize, I'm proud of them, really...but it's not the purpose of this place.  Maybe we should rename it "Cam-Customer Notes and Information about the Sex Trade"?

These are just my opinions....maybe focus it more on the models than the customers.  Publicize it to the models.  Give them control...something they aren't allowed in the studios.

If models don't post and join, then the forum has failed.

YMMV, IMHO, etc. etc....my opinions.
-vishbar

Oh yeah dear vishbar and vodka, we all forget about the "confessions" posts by some members on here? to justify their pvt takings? sorry but you both speak against your own posts. There are different forums/topics on this forum people, different subjects.., all people deserve an place here.., you both should know very well... It's not you who can decide when or if the forum has failed, to compare it to your own american self interest morale, vishbar.. thanks the lord for that...

Holy acerbic post, Batman!! To the bat cave!

Apparently someone didn't read the "YMMV, IMHO, etc. etc....my opinions" line at the bottom.

Which of my posts am I speaking against, dearest wise Supernova? Please enlighten me! Or am I too much of an evil American imperialist to understand? Please, I'm begging you...can you place your enlightened touch upon my stupid, slow, Neanderthal-like mind?

Yes, all people deserve a place here. I never said they didn't. But maybe....just maybe...the models need to be given more of a voice. I was under the impression that the forum was for models. Sure...there's a place for academic texts on the sex trade and "confession" posts. But this is "Cam-Girl Notes". Now bear with me here--sometimes my feeble mind isn't capable of grasping all the concepts of your magnificent European cerebral cortex--maybe the models need to be given a bit more control and a bit more of a voice? If they don't like the language that's being used...then change it. This is for THEM....not us....and. I think we need to keep that in mind.

Right now I need to go chase down a deer, hit it on the head with a rock, eat it raw (because I haven't discovered fire yet....American education doesn't cover cooking meat), and invade a country under false pretenses. Bye for now!

-vishbar

P.S. "to compare it to your own american self interest morale, vishbar.. thanks the lord for that..." <-- that sentence doesn't make sense. Or maybe my weak brain just can't unravel it.

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#18 [url]

Jan 21 07 8:19 AM

QUOTE (vishbar @ January 21, 2007 09:15 am)
P.S. "to compare it to your own american self interest morale, vishbar.. thanks the lord for that..." <-- that sentence doesn't make sense. Or maybe my weak brain just can't unravel it.

It makes sense a lot, thx for your monthly contribution on this forum vishbar

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#19 [url]

Jan 21 07 9:39 AM

I don't want the 'Odessa Prostitute Models Unite' thread to become a flame war. I posted my own post there in response to delfina, who I agreed with. So maybe this thread can be used for us to determine what 'limits' on this forum (other than 'off-topic' section) or if not limits, then what contibutions might interest models and make them wish to come here and discuss...

I think some parts of the non-cam sex trade posts tie into the cam business. It just seemed in the last few weeks only prostitution and trafficking posts were being made.

In Ukraine, where nude cam work is illegal (yes there are some legal sites where models wear underwear and do not get fully naked for Ukraine clients), it is not due to a 'real' (ie prostitution/trafficking) crime of sex trade but to 'virtual' crime against code 301 which is the production and distribution of pornography. Pornography is illegal in Ukraine and illegal for it to cross its border. Read their custom laws, it states even electronic forms are illegal. Sites such as PF, take nude pics, put them in bios and have screenshots from pvts in model bios as well, so it is not just a private matter that is started and finished when a customer hits the button to enter then leaves. So there is a thin argument that it is production and distibution under existing laws.

And while I would say certain posts that show that the police, newspapers, etc. -see- them as linked and related and thus may give us a tool to be used, this forum -seems- inundated with only posts like that which are given without explaination or possible connection, and it may possibly be sending the wrong message to models.

But in all the 'Situation in X Country", not just Ukraine, there are many posts on prostitution and sex/human trafficking. The connections of all of these posts to cam-modeling are not always clear and maybe a moment or two of explaination might help?

As for the 'customer stories'. Maybe models are interested in what a few on our side have experienced? And as it seems all of those posts have shown an end result of us coming to understand and respect models both in specific and general terms, but at least those posts are directly tied into the cam business and about models in some way or another.

I just wanted to take a moment, pause, and ask: do the posts about prostitution and sex/human trafficking which are given without explaination or stated 'links' to camming give models the impression of disrespect or at least the impression we have no clue what they do? Thus making this forum not fulfill the purpose for which it was intended.

Maybe explaining the links between posts and cam work will help... maybe not. But I guess delfina is not the only one who feels like this site stating it is a cam site makes it seem that every post on prostitution and trafficking is a direct link to camming. And the closer a model is geographically to the stated post, or the closer to how they are in chat (posture, talk, attitude), the closer they will feel as if the post is a direct statement towards them. And if we, who are here, talk about models as 'cam hos' and 'meat at a market' and the industry itself as 'virtual/cyber prostitution' without thought, I know if I was a model, I would feel not understood and probably not return either.

There is always duality. Ecorts/prostitutes-whores-hos, dancers/strippers, models-cam girls(guys)/cam hos-meat. And while I do not particularly enjoy 'politcal correctness' I do believe that a person is read by the words they use and judgement given to them by such. delfina already stated her disappointment at disrespect (real or only perceived) from members using 'cam hos' and references to meat markets/meat laying for display. And then recently under the prostitution in Odessa thread. I am sure she does not speak only for herself.

Flaming and name calling isn't the solution. We are not the beggars, jerks, and liars from the cam sites, are we??? Shouldn't we hold ourselves to a higher standard as delfina said she once saw us as? And while I know hot tempers and the -need- to defend our opinions and posts runs deep in others as well as myself, we are a zoo as Vaio stated..but one in which all the cages are open and the zookeeper gone. Or at least if we are to use Orwellian terms from Animal Farm, as was brought up in another post, "All Animals are Equal, but some Animals are more equal than Others"

So maybe some models can tell us their opinions. Maybe they will not. Perhaps delfina, if she has the time, can comment on posts she thinks are/were useful to her. Or Sweet October. Or Froglover. Or any models. What have you found useful here?

And the 'Language Lab' idea IMO is a good one. I know a lot of models who were always asking me about this or that word/phrase. But if all the 'good works' we are trying to do here are offset by flame wars and posts that the models cannot connect with or understand as being relevant to them, then we all lose.

I know I am here for 1 reason. To try to help those models with whom I am friends. I have been 'side-tracked' a couple times answering questions/defending answers, but that is still my purpose here.

-vodka

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