#21 [url]

Jan 21 07 11:56 AM

Omg, I find myself in the middle of the battle lines...

On one hand, personally speaking... When I started exploring this forum, last week-end, I was bored by only one category of posts, which I found nearly totally irrelevant : the ones about hard prostitution and human trafficking.

On the other hand, again personally speaking... I could not say that there is no connection at all between camming and prostitution, and I understand the point of those who view camming as a soft form of virtual prostitution. I have not yet reached a final conclusion on this issue - assuming that there is one. Ultimately, it all depends on the definition of "prostitution" you use. Webster's Online Dictionary defines prostitution as "offering intercourse for pay". Obviously nothing to do with camming. But Merriam-Webster defines the same term as "the act or practice of engaging in promiscuous sexual relations especially for money". Here a doubt appears, depending on what is meant by "relations" and by "promiscuous" (and the definition of this term in the same dictionary does not help, check yourselves if you want ;-). And now the American Heritage Dictionary defines prostitution as "The act or practice of engaging in sex acts for hire". Similarly, Garner's Dictionary defines it as "the act or practice of engaging in sexual activity for money or its equivalent". Is this not, in a way, whan camgirls perform on every shift ?

But I think I am getting off topic. Never allow a lawyer to fiddle with definitions

Now, back to the main topic discussed here. I would rather thend to agree with Delfina and her troops. This is a site about camgirls, not about prostitution and human trafficking. Or did I miss an important point when I dutifully read UncleLewis' post "What we are doing here and what we are not", in "About GCN" ?

Vaio

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#22 [url]

Jan 21 07 1:00 PM

cool.gif

Obviously..the main point.. and the bulk of our information and comments are about the cam world. Mapping that growth of that world around the globe is the also main focus of my own research. It's an amazing kind of virtual globalization of social networks that has all kinds of emotional and financial fallout - as we can read about here in virtually all of our topics.

But I should point out that posts on the issues of the legal status of sex workers or the large traffick in women across Eastern Europe and Russia..have been made here from the beginning of the forum last April - but as sidebars to the main conversation - and issues that were kept securely locked up in my personal "reading room."

If these post are too controversial - or too irrelevant to our main concerns - then maybe we should move them back there - with a large warning sign "this section contains material which deals with adult themes that some may find offensive." I wouldn't mind in the least - if that would make people feel better. I would, however, oppose removing them entirely from the forum though.

But it's events that have brought these issues together - in my mind at least. It's a direct consequence of the police raids across the Ukraine and the press accounts of those raids in the Ukrainian media...As well as the language that journalists and police spokesmen use to connect what happens on the internet to other kinds of commercial sexual activity. One of our members observed that all the press accounts that we have translated and posted here that deal with Studio busts or other police repression of sexual traffic in the Ukraine are stereotypically written in the same stilted language - as though the newspapers were printing versions of the same police press hand-out.

Something is happening in the Ukraine - a general crackdown on sex work in general - that maybe has the objective of increasing the police share of the "protection rents" they can charged "Mommies," "pimps" and "studio owners," or maybe as a response to International pressure from Humanitarian NGOs and International agencies. But the result of the crackdown is a growing confusion between apples and oranges -between cam-models and other kinds of sex work - that is not just a figment of Doc's warped imagination. There seems to be a national campaign underway in the Ukraine - which includes a lot of publicity in the media - that aims at fostering the perception of all sex work virtual or real as being about criminal "prostitution" or "the propagation of pornography." And people we know are going to jail over these questions of legal defintion of their activity, and losing all their property and capital investments.

So the problem here is not how to answer the "Doc," but now to wage a counter campaign of public information. We might begin by discussing some specific policy questions. Should the Ukrainian cam studios be legal -the way they are across the rest of Europe? Should Ukrainian cam models have working papers and health benefits and unemployment insurance - the way their colleagues do in most of the Bulgarian and Romanian studios? When do you bring "camming" out into the open? Do you want to make it legal and subject to taxation, and labor regulations? Or do we here agree that camming is a some kind of "video plague" that undermines women's human dignity and that ought to be outlawed? In short, what are the pros and cons of legalization?

We asked that question ten months ago to general indifference, but now answering it has become rather urgent, I think.

Other questions come to mind as well.

Who's interest is served by keeping this industry illegal and underground? The cops? the Mafia? And how should cam models react when their secret is out? And their industry attacked by the national authorities who are trying to foster a kind of public 'Moral panic" about it in the mass media?

This is not just a question for Cam models in the Ukraine, because moves are underway virtually everywhere to define the commerical purchase of sexual services of any kind as both "prostitution" and a "violation of the human rights of women." The difference is that in Sweden and the United States the authorities are trying to figure out how to prosecute the male clients of female sex workers - rather than vice-versa.. But in any case, the current mood targets all commercial sex providers - so what hits one group of sex workers will quickly hit all the others.

This discussion is no longer a matter of hurt feelings, or academic debate.. It's a question of whether we will throw the whole post 1960's sex culture out the window, and see how far we are ready to go to reintroduce "public shaming" and police repression for all sexual deviants.

These questions are not new on this forum. As I said they were posed from the very beginning by me but with the approval of the forum admins.. It's just that it took the action of the police in the Ukraine to get our attention about focusing on them.

And again it's not about answering one 60 year old, left wing professor...with all his tics and mannerisms from another age.

Its about how to deal with the shift in public opinion away from a culture "sexual tolerance" that allowed for the legalization of commercial sex services towards something that will put men and women back under the thumb of local religious authorities and their friends in the local police.

So my question here is.. Does the adult enterainment industry deserve to survive in its current form? Can it be reformed so its workers are treated humanely and fairly? Or is the idea of reforming it a contradiction in terms, because commercial sex workers are all victims of sexual abuse whether they admit it or not? That's the consensus view that many women scholars adopt that's increasingly influential in international policy making circles. Sex work, in this view, can't be voluntary or consensual. It always involves some degree of male "vicitmization" of women.

So then, if we bought into this view, should we try to put it out of business? And call this the "Cam-Girl Forum for the Abolition of Cam-Girls?" Knowing full well that the most likely result will be that cam studios are driven even further underground and their workers handed over to the control of transnational criminal networks - or "mafias" ? I don't really think that at all, because"camming" is in my personal view the least of all "evils" as far as commercial sex work is concerned, because it's the safest form imaginable from a health and physical safety standpoint. But it's still "sex work" with all sort of psychological and social impacts on people's self image and social status.
And in the meantime, Guys and Gals, the movement for "abolition" is growing and along with it the potential for a worsening of working conditions for sex workers in general. I think that this is where I think we are headed. And I don't think that that argument is a "red herring." I think it makes all the logical links that Vodka has asked for between what happens to "cam - models" and to other kinds of commercial sex workers.

Obviously this is a new topic proposal that goes way beyong just talking about "The Situation in the Ukraine."

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#23 [url]

Jan 21 07 6:27 PM

all very interesting, tiring, and frustrating.
I will add my thoughts on the subject, although they may not be fully pertainant to this conversation and if they are not a moderator can kill my post.

I am close friends with a model, and know a few other models. I know how they feel towards most things regarding their work. I can tell you this that at first, this site seems interesting to them because of the name. Then they register and start reading information that...mostly..seems overwhelming. They gleen from it the key lines that make the most sense to them. The rest gets thrown aside.

I know that in the case or cases I am aware of the site pissed the models off. There were also comments made to the models that more or less deemed them as being poor girls that can't make a buck and need to go do something worth while. OK I agree that they need to do someting different, and most models know that too. However attacks on ones source of income and being and being told your not good enough is pure idiocy in their book. I know that if someone attacked me for the work I do (didn't matter what it was) that I would instantly be put on the defensive.
I agree to a extent that alot of the infromation on this site is good, but if I was in the models' shoes I would be leary as all hell. After all, like in another thread in the forum, who can they trust ??? Yes alot of people on this site have laid down who they are and what there intentions are...but how do they know thats true ?

My friend has decided to stay away from the forum just because similar questions and feelings brought up right in this thread. She thought it was going to be a place for the models to put out a word and pass information along. Which may be great on the models' side of the forums, but if you read the mumble jumbo thats not on the models side but in the regular forums, it angered her enough to eliminate the site from her memory.

I personally don't care much about the politics of the situation. All I know is that the girls that want out of the nightmare can find way to do it. Personally, I don't think the answer is on these forums. Yet.

This makes sense or not. Do with it what you will.

Intellect is not my specialty....but I know I have made large strides in helping others.

-FIVE

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#24 [url]

Jan 21 07 11:02 PM

Hmm,
Well the Title of the Forum does say CAM Girl Notes.
I have only seen a few Cam Girls respond on here= all of the site or forum.
Maybe all their notes are in private Model 2 Model section or are they?
I do not see many topics here started by models,at least not lately.
I have got to talk with different models and all of them eventually move on to
a different job when they are maybe tired of camming or the money is not so good any longer.
I would rather have more input from models as to what is available in their countries for work or supplies to make jobs for themselves,maybe with a little help if needed to get started.
The people in countries that have corrupt police have to get their friends together and protest for things to change.As is what the working street girls are doing.
They see more than anyone how corrupt your police really are because of how they are misstreated because of their profession many times.
I did know one model that told me she was going to NYC to work the streets in the summer and she was from Germany.I never told anyone here about her but there are a few camgirls that might do things like this for money even though they are only a few.I also knew one that said she was going into doing porn movies and she was serious about that also.
The majority of models are doing cam because it pays better than other jobs and they do not have anyone touching them and maybe they are in a warm place to work.
The most important thing for any person on here to remember is that most countries that want to join the European Union are enforcing the laws that they have more every day.This is to look better as a country and to look like there is less corruption.
LOOK is a strange word because it means deceive or hide what they (maybe the police and government) are doing while at same time look like they are doing good for the country in the news.
Some of the posts on prostitution and trafficking are good information but not worthy of posting on here maybe.
Anyway,when girls work in a corrupt country,they might want to try to work within the laws so that abusive police have no reason to ever touch them or ask them for sexual favors to get out of jail.
To talk about trafficking,some girls maybe use traffickers to travel to other countries that they would otherwise never be able to go to.
If any models have something they want to talk about other than what I talked about here,please start another topic in models section.
Thank you..

Money is like manure; it's not worth a thing unless it's spread around encouraging young things to grow. Thornton Wilder


You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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#25 [url]

Jan 21 07 11:16 PM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ January 21, 2007 01:00 pm)
But it's events that have brought these issues together - in my mind at least. It's a direct consequence of the police raids across  the Ukraine and the press accounts of those raids in the Ukrainian media...As well as the language that journalists  and police spokesmen use to connect what happens on the internet to other kinds of commercial sexual activity.

UL such articles about prostitutes appears in press very often from time to time...i dont find anything new or unique or sensational in that one which was posted. As for Kiev studio and all tv and press noise around it i think it was more circumstances of the raid and wrong acting of some people in there. More than a year ago ive accidentally seen a tv program about closing of such kind of studio in Crimea...and then read an article in newspaper and of course was shocked. It happened long before these problems touched my studio...so i dont think we can talk about aimed campaigne...Though i cant refuse the idea that Kiev raid could cause something like that. Anyway these problems were, are and will be until this work won't be illegal. But unfortunately its not something which could depend on models.

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#26 [url]

Jan 21 07 11:26 PM

cool.gif
Why doesn't it depend on you...and your co-workers..??
One place to practice your arguments for legalizing your industry and bringing the Ukraine in line with the rest of the European Union -which you all want so much to join - is right here.
Answer your own press with the same guts and wit that you use to answer me.

You have the gift for seeing the gaps in your opponent's arguments. And you are blessed with a strong counter punch, dear..
So now use it.. but for some-thing more important than just replying to ol' me, lol.

UL
Oh, btw one way to begin hittting back is to follow the example of one Ukrainian member here.
She has been commenting on the website of Bigmir when they run an article about another bust of a cam-studio.. And there have been at least ten all over the Ukraine since the beginning of last year - that seems pretty systematic to me.

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#27 [url]

Jan 22 07 7:03 PM

hey, everyone here..
I can't understand why everybody takes this article so personally and sometimes offensively.
When I have found this article I thought it was worth while to know. The more u know the more u can avoid. The Sex World is wide and global with many exciting turns or unlikely horrible ends. So my main reason, why I mentioned this theme, is to help Uncle in developing the site so it can be the guide for everyone.
I didnt try to tie it directly to camming.
I know that u can be a stripper and never have sex for money or can be a cam-model bored by the customer on screen.
But that isn't all there is to it..
I also know many young girls who were dazzled silly by an illusion of the fantastic life that many porno production companies propose. Dont u think they should know all the "naked truth" so that they can make well-weighted choice?

...
The other thing is that in the X-Soviet Union "Sex" didn't exist at all. All the kids were brought by storks. We tried to hide the truth, but that doesnt mean the true reality stops existing. I'm persuaded that useful information and discussion can help sort many crappy things out...

Nowadays I realized that the reference point for young people isn't education, kindness, beauty... It's "hotness..." Everybody wants to be hot...Isn't it one reason why young people bored by an office job prefer camming or something even "hotter" to do..
I don't say it is bad or good. It just fashionable bias of the new generation and accepting it or not is up to everyone.
Rather it would be great if everyone was protected by law and could do what he/she wants/feels to do. whether it's camming, stripping, or prostitution.

However, the most unprotected females live in East Europe and Russia, and u should not forget that more than half of the cam studios and freelancers are located there.The Situation there doesnt allow for normal legal work for cam girls or guys. Just for surviving in the sea of police corruption and violence, social shame and danger.
The causes why for example, the police raids that took place in Kyiv or Odessa are old as The World. We still live in a past when all World belonged to men, when their everyday violence counted as one of love's joys, and a man who has many gfs is a stud or macho, while a woman with the same attitude was a slut or whore.
...It s all about that.
And to say sometning more, "Trafficking posts" aren't obligatory reading for whomever it doesn't consist an interest. Anyway, it s good that everybody has own conclusion after reading one post to discuss with.
As matter of fact making the site more interesting for models depends on them.
Every model is welcome to start their own topic and find a witty team to talk with

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#28 [url]

Jan 22 07 8:03 PM

OMG...i feeling so small and miserable lost in all these high words and phrases...so smart that im pissing my pants of course i cant talk so complicated and ....and...yawn...
Well i have suggestion...UL and froglover...u r giving information to show how bad is situation and tell that it has to be changed...So what about some suggestions about HOW to change it?

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#29 [url]

Jan 22 07 8:24 PM


Delfina we are not really interested in making you feel smaller..
just stronger..
So here's something to think about...maybe
Obviously there's an on-going press campaign that targets cam-models as well as other sex workers in the Ukraine.. Couldn't you work with somebody here who really knows public relations - say our member Wanker - to figure out a strategy of how to start answering back to the press commentary that aims at putting everybody in the same sack - in order to drown them in the Dnieper?

All of the internet editions of the Ukrainian and Russian newspapers we have cited here, allow their readers to comment and reply to the articles..anonomyously.
How about taking some baby steps toward doing something to combat this pernicious process of stigmatizing all sex workers in the Ukraine with the same criminal label? By answering back each and every time they run a nasty story?
Just a thought..Delfina..
Maybe you and Froglover should cooperate rather than just berate each other?
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#31 [url]

Jan 22 07 8:38 PM


Funny Vaio..
but actually what I said is not a bad suggestion..
Time to start talking back to the press there.
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#32 [url]

Jan 22 07 8:50 PM

Hey UL, I see you are also learning from me. I can't remember any of your posts that reached such a degree of concision : only 3 lines !

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#33 [url]

Jan 22 07 8:59 PM

Yeah yeah UL....talking to press...maybe hunger strike in front of Duma...I dont think i will be too good in Joan of Ark role.

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#34 [url]

Jan 22 07 9:15 PM

Why not mandate the admins of this forum to send an official protest note to the Ukrainian authorities and media on behalf of all the members ?

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#35 [url]

Jan 22 07 9:25 PM

QUOTE (Supernova @ January 22, 2007 09:17 pm)
QUOTE (delfina @ January 22, 2007 09:59 pm)
Yeah yeah UL....talking to press...maybe hunger strike in front of Duma...I dont think i will be too good in Joan of Ark role.

Well just commenting on their websites, will do it for the moment, i guess..

Dont think so Tripper....ive read comments to the articles link to which were on the site and there were some comments of ex models ive seen. And btw most of comments of these articles were opposite and negative to police raids...im afraid it means nothing except higher rates of newspapers sellings

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#36 [url]

Jan 23 07 3:53 AM


Delfina.. we are not suggesting a demonstation done outdoors in a pubic place.. or that you ask to be burned at the stake.
What we ARE talking about is a kind of mass action done over the internet... a barrage of messages aimed at one webserver- like the letters page of a newspaper.
This kind of action/demonstration is called the "Smart Mob" or the "Intelligent Swarm" - where lots of individuals repeat the same basic message - with individual variations - focused on a single issue.. in this case legalizing "virtual sex chat" and aimed at deluging the electronic mail server of an organization that you have chosen as a target.

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#37 [url]

Jan 23 07 9:32 AM

Awww, here I was gonna have some fun writing up a few slang definitions and usage explanations, and now you guys want me to actually work...

Part of the problem is that, in Ukraine at least, the laws against "production of pornography" seem to give them a leg to stand on. It all hinges on what the courts decide constitutes "production," and what is "pornography." I don't think the U.S. courts ever really decided on the second one! lol

But this means that maybe the laws need to be changed. I think that's rather beyond the scope of this little discussion, eh?

Corrupt and dirty cops are another problem that we really can't do anything about, except possibly to complain to higher authorities when we see it.

But what CAN we do?

Baby steps are about all that can be attempted at this point.

The police and the newspapers (which usually means the government) are trying to say that there is almost no difference between camming and prostitution. This is negative PR -- "bad press," we would call it.

Usually, positive PR would be used to counteract the negative PR.

They are trying to close the gap between camming and prostitution -- we want to make people see that there is a big gap!

But obviously, positive PR is out of the question in this case.

The #1 cam model in all Ukraine (whoever she might be) is not going to become a celebrity and go on tv and say, "I'm a cam girl and I'm proud of it!" lol

Even if something something big and hugely positive could be managed (Newspapers saying, "Cam Girls Save Orphanage from Wrecking Ball" or something... ) there would be the danger that our efforts would serve only as a recruiting poster for the web-pimps, and I'm pretty sure we don't want that.

We need to find a way to tell everyone that camming is NOT prostitution -- to clean up the image of camming, to make the ordinary people think that it is not the same as prostitution.

This is the first step to changing the laws -- to get the ordinary people on your side.

But we really don't want to clean it up too much, to the point that it might become trendy. (Who would have imagined, 25 years ago, that tattoos would suddenly be so popular? Is it impossible that camming could be next! )

I don't think we want those in pursuit of the elusive "hotness" (thanks, Froglover! I appreciated your post. ) to get the notion that it's soooo hot! to be a cam model. If they haven't already... That would, once again, make our work only serve as advertising to further fill pockets in Montreal, Las Vegas, and elsewhere.

About all that we can really do is a low-key campaign to counteract the official version of camming. "Spreading the word," if you prefer...

A simple message should be constructed. "Cam girls are not prostitutes!" might work. Then this message needs to be spread as much as possible, as often as possible.

Gossip, graffiti, anything that acts to weaken what the cops and newspapers are saying. It should be small, almost too small to notice, but it should be everywhere!

The letters to the newspapers are great -- the more the better! Again and again! Every time a new article is published, there needs to be letter saying "This is not true! Cam girls are not prostitutes!"

Sure, maybe it sells more newspapers -- but those people buying them will also read OUR message in those letters!

And that leads to a further step in a campaign like this -- since we have no money to spend on publicity, we must cause other people to use their money to help spread our message!

If there are "underground" student newspapers in some of the university towns, they might be persuaded to publish anonymous stories about, or even written by, some of the girls who've been "guests" of the cops. But that would have to be done through intermediaries, and very cautiously. Even the editors of those newspapers couldn't know the names of who wrote, or anyone written about, in the stories. But here we're getting into the stuff of spy novels. lol

These are just some thoughts off the top of my head... to help start the ball rolling...

Enough for one night (night here, anyway... z z z)

Wanker

Three pieces of advice for a happy life:
* Never eat at a place named Mom's.
* Never play cards with a man named Doc.
* Never get in a relationship with someone whose problems are worse than your own.
--Anon.

"Ganja is the true Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - be wasted to be saved!"

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you.
This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
--Mark Twain

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#38 [url]

Jan 23 07 4:58 PM


Thanks.Wanker..
Some good suggestions about what message our proposed internet "truth commando" might want to put out and how and where. This builds on Delfina point that the public response is already "opposed to" and "negative towards" the police raids that are being carried out.

FYI there already is an open topic on the Ukrainian news forum (English Language) where members and models might want to add their opinions to those that have already been posted like this one posted below. You can go to
http://en.for-ua.com/forum/read.php?4,14510

This is what one Kyiv model (not from the affected studio or private feeds) wrote on Wally's forum that I then reposted on the forum at for-ua.com.

I think that it's worth reading carefully.. because she lays out here a whole series of "talking points" that are possibly worth identifying by theme in order to develop some kind of "script" for models or members who agree to join a "letter writing" team.
UL

A comment on this bust from an anonymous cam-model from Kyiv.[QUOTE]

When I heard this news...I thought that it's really crazy!!! Yes I know police can come to studio, take some money and then go away...but this story went to newspapers...This is getting really serious. On the other hand, I never thought it can be considered as a crime similar in form as they say to "human traffiking", or to "selling porn production"...Hmmmm how can they prove the "production"???

And how is this possible...if I want to work like this at home...will it be a problem too??? EVERY GIRL went to this job With her wish to EARN. It is a job like other jobs, I don't see nothing wrong with it, it takes more than that to be a CRIME!!! And what is the problem if I want to use a toy, is this forbidden by the law too??? If they don't want Ukrainian girls to work like this... let them make some other jobs where it's possible for girls to earn money and LIVE!!!

And if others are jealous that some people can make more money than them, it's their problem. And I don't think that I cannot do what I want, and it is MY decision what to do or not to do. And I can say it is not ALWAYS sex shows that webcam girls do on the net. They bring smiles and happiness to foreigners who pay no matter what for pvts, where they find a good and understanding friend in a camgirl. What's wrong in chatting, smiling, and if I feel I want to stripping, or do more for him...why not??? WE save them from loneliness and emptiness. I work already a long time at it, and can say there are very different kinds of people, some who cannot walk, who cannot go out to meet somebody, some have diseases that don't let them talk to others. It is NOT porn, it's PSYCHOLOGY!!!

And police would do better to look for murders and thieves in the street than to touch the girls who want to earn and live!!!

I heard all girls from that studio are shocked...actually me too although I never worked there...but I can tell you that it makes me sad and desperate too...
What can I say, let's be strong and hope they cannot prove or call that it's a crime...

Girl

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#39 [url]

Jan 23 07 6:13 PM

Good idea, Wanker!
but i dont think that a plan with underground students newpapers would work. indeed the forums exsist...We can change a direction of public standpoint.
But, again the broad masses arent interested in cam busness much.
I think that the better way in this case that ex cam girls, who are called "guilty" by publicity, work their asses out together and hire a good lawer, who could prove there is not evidence of sex production/distribution, and because of that the camming must be recognized as public chat with erotic character, what is allowed like stripping, erotic press, sex on the phone and etc. As a result of the accepting their guiltlesness by the court, the answer to "old deal" would appear automatically in public newspapers.
But then, we really dont know the real level of the tied-together corruption in the gover systems and how possible would to prove guitlesness and in which way the judge would look at...
Often the municipal courts in Ukraine judge by taking in account interests of stronger and powerful sides, but then not honestly condemned side should turn to the court of higher level. It might work ....of course if the boss from Brooklyn helps..

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#40 [url]

Jan 23 07 7:03 PM

QUOTE (Wanker @ January 23, 2007 09:32 am)
Awww, here I was gonna have some fun writing up a few Gossip, graffiti, anything that acts to weaken what the cops and newspapers are saying. It should be small, almost too small to notice, but it should be everywhere!

For the first i wanna say that i appreciate all ur suggestions guys...and of course urs Wanker... but the thing is that there appears some kind of 'full circle': this situation needs more public attention and thats what we all are AFRAID. I know that the forst reaction of most of girls on articles in press and programs on TV was 'OMG my parents can see that'. Because noone of girls i know here doesnt want anyone of her relatives of friends to know about this work. And every word said in press can make them guess or become suspicious...I can remember my own shock when i have seen my mother reading an article about similar raid in Crimea studio. Dont think that someone will want to be the reason of this.

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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