#41 [url]

Jan 23 07 7:29 PM

I understand ur point, Delfina. The same here..when i realized that PF still uses my pics to promote their sites i was surprised and embaressed, but i didnt want to appeal to them to stir the pass up.. but in my case there is nothg threatening me.
The girls who were caught by cops, were humiliated in press and on publicity and got out of the universities, they have nothg to loose now, but to protect get their rights for private life and work and reinstate in their schools. if i was them i surely would fight to the end.
Also i dont think Wanker by that phrase meant he was going to create advertisements with signs for each model, her address, phone and contact info...

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#42 [url]

Jan 23 07 7:44 PM

QUOTE (froglover @ January 23, 2007 07:29 pm)
Also i dont think Wanker by that phrase meant he was going to create advertisements with signs for each model, her address, phone and contact info...

???I didnt think so either...i just meant that mentions in press can make our relatives and friends start to wonder more about night shifts, fancy lingerie etc...

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#43 [url]

Jan 23 07 9:51 PM

QUOTE (Vaio @ January 23, 2007 09:19 pm)
If camming is sooo different from prostitution, why be sooo ashamed (within Tim's meaning of the word) to disclose it to family and friends ?

Tim its not always question of shame...But we have to deal with that fact that most of people cant accept that work...Simple scare to lose or hurt close people...I dont feel ready to bring my private life as a victim of my work.
Also i can tell u wonderful story. One model's boyfriend knew about her work and even was with her in studio where she worked with 2 more girls a lot. One day he got very drunk and told to someone in bar about this all. In few days they had police came to the studio and took 2 of them. They got free but payed lots of money.
Any other questions why models wanna keep their work in secret?

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#44 [url]

Jan 23 07 10:48 PM

The girls that go to University/college from that studio, despite what the papers said, were -not- expelled from the universities. So they do have a lot to lose if they stir up trouble. I think the police have used this to threaten those in college as a 'testify for us against your boss and we will keep you in school, otherwise you will be expelled'. I personally know 5 who just passed exams and are taking a well deserved break
Some are now working at another studio at another site, this one doesnt have stupid fines, or stupid rules. The models can take breaks at any time, for any reason and for as long as they want. I know they do not want to end up in jail (again) if they point too much attention to themelves. FYI: the police apparently still have the dildos :P I guess they need the for their own pleasure.
Others have new jobs and just want to put that part of their life behind them. and I am not one to try to get them into the spotlight and possibly ruin their new legal jobs.

The jurists required hefty fees from these girls. and remember the girls that -need- the jurists had their money stolen from the police. I can tell you from firsthand knowledge the first round of Jurists did NOT get their fees paid to them by super-boss Axxx. Those fees are stated by me elsewhere and was just to keep the girls off the 'crime data bank', so they can have a future with good jobs. Anyone volunteer to pay the cost for a long drawn out campaign to change a law? Volunteers???? Didn't think so...

Right now all the girls (not the admins/boss), feel relatively safe. Even the ones that were not there, but were contacted by the police, told me yesterday they now have no problems. they just want that to continue so they can move forward with thier lives.

And Ukraine does not consider it prostitution. The producers are prosecuted under 301(anti-porn), not 303 (anti-sex work/trafficking). And the models are not currently being charged with anything. from the models' point of view they are just being squeezed for information/testimony against the 'producers' (admins/boss), and were harrassed/threatened with 'exposure' to gain such information/testimony.

It just happened the model that exposed this studio had a bf on the human trafficking/sex crime division of the police. She got pissed after being fired and the bf was perfectly happy with her camming as long as she was bringing home the cash, but after she was fired... Nice boost to his career. And it is relatively easy for the police to say 'it is close' to justify their own posturing. Same would be if an ATF raid on a drug ring said "umm well, they had guns" even when it should have been the DEA raiding it.

Shame doesn't mean it is prostitution. I am sure a lot of girls here in the states don't want their parents knowing they posed in Playboy college edition either. I doubt anyone would think posing in playboy is prostitution. It -is- pornography, Ukraine only allows 'artistic nudity in natural settings without penetration' and even the people that have legal permits to sell magazines that have been 'approved' are subject to having to pay bribes to keep the corrupt police from making up excuses to confiscate the materials and sell it themselves a couple blocks away (pay for the yearly subscription of Kyiv Post and read that in the archives yourself). It can be argued it is production because those videos are saved and used in screenshots in bios and other promotions of that site. and as Froglover said, that site never takes down bios. They are normally 'hidden' unless you know an ex-models ID #, but after the raid I guess no one ever informed one of the PF/Porn- branches the girls were not coming back and their bios are still on the main site, to be seen by anyone. And delfina is correct, yet again, when exposure leads to jail/bribes/jurists. It is financial not only 'shame'

And while all the suggestions have merit. Ukraine as a whole is seen by its people to have much bigger problems to attend to. They cannot even decide if they are a parlimentary or presidential system. The entire government and law makers are changing and creating new laws every day to hold, keep, and gain new power. And with a population that is 95% Christian, and 85% of that Orthodox, the Orthodox-Ukraine Patriarch's recent 'anti-porn, Back to Christian morals' campaign holds sway in government laws.

And viao it is not always what the customer wants. I know some models who refuse anal, pee, poop, and other requests that others models will do. And you are also talking pedophiles in USA or Western Europe laws. In Ukraine there are no laws against having kiddie porn on your computer . Only against the law to produce/distribute it. The exact same law that is beng used against camming. Again, read Kyiv Post archives.

Sadly, what needs to happen is not an en masse protest by cam girls, but for some politicians in Ukraine to be exposed as going to cam sites so that they will change the laws to benefit themselves. After what most see as a huge failure of the Orange Revolution, en masse protests just do not have the support and drive to change laws any more. The average Ukrainian feels about the same as the average American did after the population voted Gore and the electorial college voted Bush. 'The people have no power'.

As Delfina said, the current cam girls just want to stay 'hidden'. Why put targets on their backs while they are camming and making comfortable money? And after the raid and moving on, they just want it to be over with. We are talking about women 18-25 years old. They don't want a life mission of protecting camming, they just want a life.

And EVERY day I get at least one email from some ex-model of that studio that says something to the effect of "vodka, don't worry. We will be ok". If only I didn't care, or could think/believe it was true...

-vodka

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#45 [url]

Jan 24 07 12:28 AM

Hello.... Please show me where I said or implied where someone should feel ashamed?
Vaio implied that I said or meant it and not sure where that came from. Ohh well..
Girls should do what is best for themselves and not go by anything I say or anyone else here says.Everyone is eventually responsible for their own actions or lack of any action.
Our destiny is in our own hands.
I would never tell any girl that does camming to tell her family or anyone else what she is doing.That is their choice,not mine or anyone elses.
It is good to hear that the girls that used to work in those studio's are doing ok for themselves.
Maybe they can become part of the movement someday to bring more fair justice to all people in their country.Are any studying to be jurists or lawyers as we call them here?
I have seen how messed up the government has become in Ukr from reading news online.Maybe they will get it worked out sometime this year.
Other countries that have allready joined EU this year still have corruption problems also. Too many people expect a quick fix but these problems have been there for years.
Just keep working at it with your friends and you will find your way Delfina.
If you did not care about what has been going on in your country,you would not be taking the time to read what we say and respond to it.
Thank you for your responses or feedback on here Delfina.
As for all of the other models and members,thank you also for taking the time to think up topics or respond to others on here.
UL was having a hard time trying to explain why he added this topic on here but maybe people would understand more if they actually read what was inside,instead of looking at just the topic.
It's more fun having someone respond or tell you when they think you said or did something wrong than to have them agree with you all the time.
Almost forgot to say that it is not only a problem for girls that do camming but for anyone in all countries that have corrupt police.The police can take anyone in and say they did something even if they did not and then harrass them for money,sex or whatever to get out.

Money is like manure; it's not worth a thing unless it's spread around encouraging young things to grow. Thornton Wilder


You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Tom78

Very Talkative

Posts: 64

#46 [url]

Jan 24 07 2:07 AM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ April 23, 2006 08:10 pm)
cool.gif
But all men and women are welcome here.

We aim to make it possible for you to exchange information, tips and points of view across national borders and studio doors within Europe -but also world wide with your peers and competitors in Asia, Latin and North America


Delfina, allow me to continue quoting .....exchange information, tips and points of view....

Without any doubt this forum should also provide tips for cam-girls to improve their working conditions! But this forum provides much more than that!

Of course, Delfina, this forum needs active cam-girls! Among others it should be made from cam-girls for cam-girls! But not only!

And, Delfina, similar to our male members, there are very different interests among cam-girls!

It was no coincidence, that I opened a topic with a question to cam-girls, what they are interested in. It can be found here. You had been the only model who gave an answer!

But now to the question: What has prostitution and trafficking to do with the cam-girl job?
A lot!!!

As usual I use quotations from dialogues with cam-girls or from chats of webcam-sites! That means, I reflect here the opinion of models, not my own! Of course there is a certain selection when I talk to models! Nevertheless, you should be able, Delfina, to accept attitudes, which differs from yours!
You should allow, that other camgirls have different needs for information and that the forum tries to cover them all!

But back to the question: Some nights before I followed a discussion between a cam-girl and a visitor. The cam-girl finished study and is badly searching a job, which is hard to find in her country! This visitor offered her a job! During that talk I realized that that cam-girl didn't know much about this job and about this visitor! But he offered her to live in his house as a "friend". Obviously he hold her neither name of company nor location nor other details (salery and so on). The MODEL!! told him she would fear to be forced to work in "night clubs" or to become an "indentured servant". Finally she refused!

This is NOT the only situation, which I know! There is only one conclusion possible: the forum has to inform the models about these facts!

Delfina, of course you can close your eyes! But it is well known, that especially on webcam sites some guys are looking for women for nightclubs and prostitution!

There are some reports about forcing (smart) women to street prostitution! And not only in Turkey and Italy! The webcam milieu is one of the targets of that pimps!

And, Delfina....
I won't talk you out to be a cam-girl! But don't try to make me believe that this job increases your reputation!

Tom

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#47 [url]

Jan 24 07 10:30 AM

Wow!

I am simply boggled by the number of posts on this topic in just the last 24 hours, and by the high quality of the content! Thanks to everyone!

Some questions that I'd intended to ask have already been answered, and answers have been given to questions that I hadn't yet known enough to realize needed asking!

I'm also mildly chagrined to notice that I allowed a couple of mistakes in my last post to pass uncorrected... where's an "embarrassed" smiley when you need one? lol In my defense, it was really late here.

But on to new business...

Yes, Doc, that girl's letter is an almost perfect exemplar of the letter we need! It'll be relatively easy to turn into a template/guide for budding letter-writers, and I'll get on that task in the next few days, as time permits.

One additional note on the question of "production of pornography"... I don't think anyone would argue that a stage play is not a production, and nothing concrete exists of it once it is over. But then again, it may only be the same word in English.

Yes, Froglover, I understand that the broad masses don't care much about the cam business. But they all know about it, at least a little, and we want what they know about it to be influenced by what we have told them, not only what they get from the newspapers and tv.

And yes, nobody wants their cover blown. (Your little story made me smile, Delfina! ) But an exercise in mass consciousness-raising (which is what we are discussing here) will, if it is successful, make everyone more aware of camming. And it is an unfortunate side effect, but that will increase suspicion on any attractive young woman with a surprisingly well-paying job and lots of sexy lingerie.

Still, I think it needs to be done, quietly, discretely, even secretly. But based on other posts (thanks to those who wrote them), perhaps the message needs to be "Cam girls do strip-tease, not prostitution." That does not sound very elegant or catchy in English, but maybe it can be improved by a clever translator.

No one would think to question a felt-tip marker among a young woman's possessions, and I bet there are restroom walls everywhere that are just crying for this message!

The reason behind the underground student newspaper idea was to get the real truth out to those who might be most in need of knowing it. And isn't it (almost) always university students who are the leaders in social change?

I'm not saying that anyone here should make signs and stage protests. But would if be so bad if a bunch of students decided that all this is a big injustice, and made their own demonstration?

We here are very few, and I can guess that none of us can really spend a lot of time doing this work. But the right group of young people to do this work for us is out there somewhere -- we only need to find them and give them a little push! And if we do a good job, they will never even know it was us that pushed them!

I've been thinking that the real solution to this whole problem revolves around two main changes...

First, the courts/cops/newspapers need to think of camming as being a sort of Internet strip-tease, not a crime. The sheer weight of the $$$ millions that camming brings into the country should help to enlighten them...

When this happens, the studios can become legitimate businesses and pay taxes, not bribes. Then cam girls can be treated like proper workers -- you will have nicer lives and no more fear of police raids!

Oops! It's late here again!

Wanker

Three pieces of advice for a happy life:
* Never eat at a place named Mom's.
* Never play cards with a man named Doc.
* Never get in a relationship with someone whose problems are worse than your own.
--Anon.

"Ganja is the true Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - be wasted to be saved!"

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you.
This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
--Mark Twain

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#48 [url]

Jan 24 07 3:10 PM

cool.gif

First I would like to join Wanker in giving a round of applause to all the participants in this discussion - which started out with some personal sniping but has quickly moved on to the practical and serious questions of "What Must Be Done?" (said with a quick nod to Ivan Ilyich..lol), about the wave of police repression in the Ukraine - and all the press publicity that surrounds it.

Second, I would like to say to Delfina that I am afraid that just waiting for the media storm "to blow over"won't do as a strategy. Secrecy was your friend for years in this underground and illegal industry, but not now because is the secret is out in the open - and so far only your enemies are allowed to tell your story.
"Cam-models" have become an established story topic in the both the Russian and Ukrainian print and electronic media. It's like a stationary front that brings not one thunderstorm but a whole series of storms. You may hope that lightening won't strike twice in the same place in any one storm, but the chances of being hit in crease exponentially if thunderstorms are occuring daily.

One of the reasons I have been posting all those information stories about studio busts, the arrest of outdoor and indoor sex workers and human traffickers - besides their" informational value" (l0l) - is that posting them permits us all to track the growth of this story in the Russian, Western and Ukrainian media. I think that "Cam studios Busts" are now a firmly estabished sub-genre in the general topic areas of "crime" and "human interest" stories in your press. Why? Well, Delfina is right. These kinds of "sensationalist stories" promote newspaper circulation because they simultaneously allow the reader to enjoy a moment of purtanical satisfaction at the public humilation of "bad girls." AND a moment of sexual tilliation at the "naughty bits" that always accompany these stores. One quick look at the photos chosen to illustrate these press stories confirms this.

So the press attention won't let up, Delfina. Question is what do you with that fact?

I join Wanker in saying that if the press coverage won't stop, you must work with it through a "stealthy" (furtive) public relations campaign to critique the press coverage of "cam girl studios" each and every time these stories appear.

I also agree with Wanker that the group that is the most likely to do this work are student activists. Why? Well, the most obvious thing about the social profile of most of the men and women who are working in the cam industry is that 50% of them or more are students themselves.. so the social and personal connections to the university world are already built in. Secondly, there are already active campaigns against "Human Trafficking" and "Sex Work" - the "Don't Sell Yourselves" campaign that we have reported on here - that are ongoing in the Ukraine and include lots seminars and conferences around these themes in the Ukrainian universities. So the general issue of sex work has already been raised in student circles..

Can we "work with" that growing public awareness in order to seperate out 'cam-models" from the rest of the "grey life" of sex work? Press stories about "prostitution" or "human trafficking" all tend to "aggregate" all sex workers into one or two categories: either "prostitution" and/or sexual slavery narratives, and to identify all sex work with its lowest common demonator - the outdoor sex workers - who are the worst paid, the most abused and the most oppressed - or alternatively with the unfortunate victims of sexual slavers. Can we think of a way to disaggregate and differentiate this story into separate sex worker "narratives" that make it clear that "cam-modeling" is a distinct occuptation that has shares few of the harms and risks to health and safety that ordinary working girls face in the street - for instance? Or that 'cam-models" do something other than perform sex acts on themselves most of the time? This is what Wanker has suggested with his slogan "Cam Modeling is Strip tease - not prostitution" or our anonymous Girl from Kyiv with her claim: "It's Psychology - not Porn."

Here Vaio has done us all a favor by doing an admirable job in arguing the prosecution case that sex work done in the virtual world is no different from other forms of sex work that are done in the real world. But however well he has stated it, I don't think the case that "camming" is the same thing as "virtual prostitution" and/or the "propigation of pornography" can be called a case that is closed.

Solid legal arguments against Vaio's position are available on the websites of Russian websites like 'elivebusiness," wemodel.ru and the contours model agency.
Greensleeves and I have begun to translate these legal documents - and I will post them here soon. While Russia is not the Ukraine, the Russian arguments may be helpful for arguing the defense case in the Ukrainian courts since the anti-pornography laws in both countries share common roots in the Tsarist legislation that predates WWI.

So the relevance of the Russian arguments should be obvious for both the "legal challenge" approach in courts that Froglover has already laid out here, and to any PR campaign that Wanker might work up.

But I will close this long post with a quote from the "BabeVid cam-site" on why they are not a porno site....and show nothing in public that's more offensive than what you can see on a public beach. With all the rest of what they do being just "private conversation" that is protected by free speech rights.


Is BabeVid an adult website?
BabeVid is designed as a place for people to chat openly about everything from Automobiles to Zebras and everything in between. Our employee performers are encouraged to keep their free chatrooms as diverse as possible by regulating the subjects discussed. Conversely they are required to allow the members who take them for a private conversation to discuss whatever they like. Our performers are not allowed to display anything more that what you would see on a public beach in their free video, but are allowed to show anything they like (as long as it's legal) to members in their private chat room. Because of the fact that you do not need to be 18 to view the free performers and there is no rule saying you must request sexual content in private it could be said that BabeVid is not an adult website. Having said that, we aren't naive to the hormones of the American teenager, so we have voluntarily rated our site NC-17.


Why couldn't we say as much of most adult chat rooms? On the condition that the "public beach standard" is respected in the open rooms? The Russians webmasters are already making arguments that are very similar to the Babevid statement quoted here...Please remember their studios are legal - which is one reason why almost all Ukrainian cam models all claim to hail from Moscow.

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#49 [url]

Jan 24 07 9:45 PM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ January 24, 2007 04:10 pm)
But I will close this long post with a quote from the "BabeVid cam-site" on why they are not a porno site....and show nothing in public that's more offensive than what you can see on a public beach. With all the rest of what they do being just "private conversation" that is protected by free speech rights.


Is BabeVid an adult website?
BabeVid is designed as a place for people to chat openly about everything from Automobiles to Zebras and everything in between. Our employee performers are encouraged to keep their free chatrooms as diverse as possible by regulating the subjects discussed. Conversely they are required to allow the members who take them for a private conversation to discuss whatever they like. Our performers are not allowed to display anything more that what you would see on a public beach in their free video, but are allowed to show anything they like (as long as it's legal) to members in their private chat room. Because of the fact that you do not need to be 18 to view the free performers and there is no rule saying you must request sexual content in private it could be said that BabeVid is not an adult website. Having said that, we aren't naive to the hormones of the American teenager, so we have voluntarily rated our site NC-17.


Why couldn't we say as much of most adult chat rooms? On the condition that the "public beach standard" is respected in the open rooms? The Russians webmasters are already making arguments that are very similar to the Babevid statement quoted here...Please remember their studios are legal - which is one reason why almost all Ukrainian cam models all claim to hail from Moscow.

UL

I don't agree with this uncle, the main thing on those sites are the sex shows, the sexy/erotic chat come on the second place, one way or another it are, and i would call it "soft" porn sites..
The descriptions those sites give on themselves, are not totally true, for that you have to know the site rules, i think? no?
it's funny that you mention something about "free speach", isn't almost every cam site a member of the Free speach coalition? I have second thoughts about this fact
i hope you have too

I think that the site where the models are on, decides to what rules they are obligated...

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#50 [url]

Jan 24 07 9:52 PM

I suppose I have no word to say here, but of course I agree with Supernova. I do not think I am talking off-topic, except of course about Lady Di...

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Tom78

Very Talkative

Posts: 64

#51 [url]

Jan 24 07 9:54 PM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ January 24, 2007 04:10 pm)
But I will close this long post with a quote from the "BabeVid cam-site" on why they are not a porno site....and show nothing in public that's more offensive than what you can see on a public beach. With all the rest of what they do being just "private conversation" that is protected by free speech rights.




Uncle, I can see only 1 group, which has an advantage of publishing those juristic sophistry: the webpimps!

According to that definition, I guess -I have no own experience- neither a street prostitute (shows in public not more than what you can see on a public beach) nor prostitutes in a whorehouse, because with all the rest of what they do being just "private conversation" that is protected by free speech rights belongs to prostitutes then!

I would suggest to stop that kind of discussion here. This doesn't help anybody and definitely not cam-girls!

Nevertheless I'm convinced, that publishing news about raids and trafficking can be a helpful information for models!


Tom

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#52 [url]

Jan 24 07 9:58 PM


Well actually I think that we were all rather on target about another open topic..and this thread is growing rather long.
So I have excercised my editorial perogative to merge this last part of our discussion with the topic which was already open in Model Issues. "What is Video Chat Really ? Porn or Sex Work? Sex Tourism?"
See - http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=260
The discussion is therefore not closed..just split into two distinct topics that are more narrowly focused...
I hope that is agreeable to all. In any case, I have just moved the newly merged topic back to this topic area.
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#53 [url]

Jan 25 07 2:54 PM

I just wanted to add that until delfina lit the matches and started the blaze that became 2 topic fires (What is Virtual Chat? and Do Sex Worker &Trafficking posts alienate?) and UL started talking about police actions being similar to the studio raids, I for one saw no link. And being a person that likes to have everything linked and sorted in my head, it probably means others did not see any connection either.

So I propose that if some article on sex trafficking/prostitution is posted on this cam-girl notes site, that some type of explaination on how it links to camming be given as well. I don't think we need our hands held and any detailed discourses given but maybe a "Look at the police treatment here and in the link about the Ukraine studio busts." will show that the link is about -others- views on camming and not the -forum's- view. Because it has to be admitted that even though it is a 'free discussion' forum, the admins and mods set the tone. And I apparently was not the only one thinking it was becoming a prostitution/trafficking forum.

Lucky for us, delfina has grit and determination and did not shy away as many others probably have. I know I for one was content to just let it disturb my own thinking without talking about it, until her post made me get it all out.

I never knew Nadya...
so...

DELFINA FOR PRESIDENT

-vodka

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#54 [url]

Jan 25 07 6:26 PM

QUOTE (vodka @ January 25, 2007 03:54 pm)
Because it has to be admitted that even though it is a 'free discussion' forum, the admins and mods set the tone. And I apparently was not the only one thinking it was becoming a prostitution/trafficking forum.

Lucky for us, delfina has grit and determination and did not shy away as many others probably have. I know I for one was content to just let it disturb my own thinking without talking about it, until her post made me get it all out.

I never knew Nadya...
so...

DELFINA FOR PRESIDENT

-vodka

But vodka, who would set the tone if not the admins..?

And even sometimes i have the feeling that it is UncleLewis against the rest of the world..lol but i'm glad that you reacted to his posts

This forum took quite a different way than expected at its start but it's not to disappoint finnally


+1 vote for DLF ! (but do we have other candidates ?)

Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#55 [url]

Jan 25 07 8:52 PM

cool.gif

I am already given to the power which rule my destiny.
I am holding on to nothing, thats why i have nothing to defend.
I have no thoughts, thats why i will SEE
I am afraid of nothing, thats why i will remember myself.
Silvio Manuel

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#57 [url]

Jan 25 07 9:02 PM

QUOTE (Supernova @ January 25, 2007 09:56 pm)
QUOTE (SlideR @ January 25, 2007 07:26 pm)
This forum took quite a different way than expected at its start but it's not to disappoint finnally

It isn't?



no, i can say that it is, J.

The posts are interesting, there is an open debate. Maybe "cam-girl notes" is not the perfect name to the forum...but that forum is alive anyway !

Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#58 [url]

Jan 25 07 10:05 PM

QUOTE (SlideR @ January 25, 2007 10:02 pm)
QUOTE (Supernova @ January 25, 2007 09:56 pm)
QUOTE (SlideR @ January 25, 2007 07:26 pm)
This forum took quite a different way than expected at its start but it's not to disappoint finnally

It isn't?



no, i can say that it is, J.

The posts are interesting, there is an open debate. Maybe "cam-girl notes" is not the perfect name to the forum...but that forum is alive anyway !

oh yes, for sure, we can leave the "girl" part of the name... Ops this is off topic.

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