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Jan 22 11 10:53 AM

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alright I got a question and I don't know why it is bothering me. Alright tonight I was on a cam site which shall remain nameless. So i go in a camgirls room and some guy has started a rumor that the model who's room I was in at the time had sexual relations with a member of the site for money and to break a record on cam. Now I don't know if its true or not but, the pieces start falling together after I thought about it.


Now for some reason its bothering me even though its none of my business. I know what kind of garbage gets said about people who do this kind of work and some it maybe deserved sometimes but, how could anyone seriously steep so low to possibly literally whore themselves out on cam for money and a title. it kinda breaks my heart a little to hear stuff like that because despite what gets said about this business there are lines that most if not all of the people working in it wouldn't cross and to think someone may have crossed this type of line its sorta sad. oh well anyway if anyone has read past my rant my question is has anyone heard anything like this happening on a site before? The reason i ask is because i've seen and heard of alot of crazy shit happening on cam but, this is a first for me and thats pretty hard to fathom for me considering all the crazy shit i've seen and heard about over the years.
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#1 [url]

Jan 22 11 1:56 PM

Harry, this is not a figment of your imagination.. We have been noticing the erosion of the boundaries between real and virtual sex work for more than a year or two.

Look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...st=0#entry14922

And also check out Black Panther's comment on Studios promoting member tours in Bucharest that comes at the end of this thread...
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...st=0#entry17763

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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onan

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Posts: 85

#2 [url]

Jan 22 11 5:11 PM

Not only is this true but I'm already trying to acquire the video. Rest assured I'll do my best.

By the by, the little vixen has just returned on cam after sleeping off last night's sexcapade.

onan

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#3 [url]

Jan 22 11 6:33 PM

sad

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#4 [url]

Jan 22 11 7:27 PM

I suppose Im in the minority but I read this and dont really see what the big deal is- besides the fact that it can make the work harder for other models.

Since when is a guy spending money to sleep with a girl a new thing? And Im not even talking about prostitution, Im talking about normal dating and courtship. I know many women who wont put out until the guy has spent a decent amount of money dating them. Flowers, dinners, movies, gifts- it all costs money. Try being broke and unemployed and see how far you get in the dating scene. Its always been that way.

So to me this is really no different. Just the girl cutting out the middle man and the usual customs.

Why does the girl want the title? cause it comes with an additional cash prize.

I admit the whole thing is really in a grey area. The guy wants sex. The girl is of the mindset that sex is not a sacred thing between man and wife and has no issues with 'friends with benefits' type relationships. You want to be her friend? Tip her well in the room. enough to get her the title and the prize and in return she'll come out and spend a night with you.

its much different from the traditional idea of prostitution where a guy pulls up to a street corner and gives a girl 20 bucks for a hand job. Or an escort service where you call up and a price is negotiated before hand.

I dont know that youd be able to proscute a girl for something like what might have happened above. (just because we dont know if its true) and because who can really say why she slept with him. Its not the first time people met off the internet and had sex. And if she chose to meet him and be with him because he was a good tipper in her room- then thats a moral question she'll have to live with but I dont think its for others to judge or falls under the legal definition of prostitution.

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#5 [url]

Jan 22 11 7:44 PM

Good points.. and well said, MJ.. What is the difference between a commercial transaction and a "gift-giving" relationship..especially when cam girls post their "wish lists" online.

BUT it's clear that the grey area between virtual and real sex work is expanding - especially on MFC with lots of raffles and offers that sound like "solicitation" - although I am sure lots of these offers are really a "bait and switch" the way the Svideo package deal to Bucharest turned out to be last summer.. I think that Black Panther is right to say that they are normalizing the idea that clients can expect that cam-models will be available for face2face meeting of some kind..

And that not only makes life harder for models who won't do that..it reduces the margin of security and anonymity for those who do - the very things that made camming the only really safe sex work around.
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#6 [url]

Jan 23 11 12:16 AM

QUOTE (MissJane @ January 22, 2011 07:27 pm)


I dont know that youd be able to proscute a girl for something like what might have happened above. (just because we dont know if its true) and because who can really say why she slept with him. Its not the first time people met off the internet and had sex. And if she chose to meet him and be with him because he was a good tipper in her room- then thats a moral question she'll have to live with but I dont think its for others to judge or falls under the legal definition of prostitution.

see thats the problem though what she maybe doing is illegal by law. shes having sex for money and money has exchanged hands supposedly which is by its definition prostitution. I was in the room today trying to get more details and she didn't deny it was a member of the site. I know you don't see a problem with it but, how many places in the world is prostitution legal? not many and from I can tell the "rumor" has spread like wildfire across the internet that shes having sex on cam with a member for money and a title. its a sad situation to me shes putting herself and the site shes on in really bad situation.


stuff like this is a black eye on the cam industry. its like the porn stars who prostitute everyone knows they do it but won't talk about it because its illegal. also instead of just being a "cam whore" she crossed the line into just being a whore and has to live with the consequences. I just wonder what the fall out of the situation will be? it could be bad or like I expect the site in question will just sweep it under the rug because its one of their top women. all I know is the game has changed. instead just being how far are you willing to go on cam its now how far are you willing to go on cam and in real life. that invisible wall has been forever broken and can't be repaired.

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#7 [url]

Jan 23 11 12:54 AM

Again harry, its a really grey area. Yes money exchanging hands for sex is prostitution but almost everything in life costs money. when you buy a girl a drink in a bar- that cost money- you exchanged money for a drink and gave it to the girl. If she decides to go home with you did you just participate in prostitution? No. Its only prostitution if a deal is made in advance- you give me x and Ill have sex with you.

With out being privy to the personal conversation between the two people- you dont know if thats really what went on.

if a sweet guy starts frequenting my chat and tips me alot and sends me gifts and helps me win a title with a cash prize attached I just may decide that I kinda like him. And maybe if he lives close to me and I dont find him repulsive then yeah maybe Ill go out with him one night and gasp as two consenting adults we have sex.

To me its not prostitution. Just a twisted form of courting a woman. Sending her gifts and money and love notes- just to get in her pants.

Again I dont know the girl, I dont know the guy.

And you refering to her as a whore and how sad it is makes it seem like youre a little bit bitter. Perhaps you had a crush on the girl and held her up to high standard and are disappointed with her promiscuity.

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#8 [url]

Jan 23 11 3:12 AM

I am a little confused here.

Prostitution is the act or practice of providing sexual services to another person in return for payment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution

prŏs'tĭ-tū'shən,
n.
The act or practice of engaging in sex acts for hire.
The act or an instance of offering or devoting one's talent to an unworthy use or cause.


http://www.answers.com/topic/prostitution

Definition of PROSTITUTION

1
: the act or practice of engaging in promiscuous sexual relations especially for money

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prostitution

The above definitions do not describe it as prostitution, specifically, only, when it is paid in advance.

So if I walk over to any woman, and simply say"I will pay you xxx amount to have sex with me, or perform a sexual act with me, right then and there, then it is not prostitution?

Furthermore, if I call up my female friend now and meet her in 3 weeks and agree with her to have sex with me, and I pay her for the act of sexual gratification, then is it considered prostitution?

But if I call my same friend up and say in 3 weeks I would like to have sex with you, without paying for it, and it is an understanding between both parties agreeing on mutual consenting sexual gratification,it is not prostitution either.

What if I met a woman at a bar and did not buy her a drink, and we just went into the bathroom of the establishment and went at it, without paying for our sexual gratification, it still is not considered prostitution.

So which action or word defines what prostitution is?

Back to what Harry described, it appears that the model was receiving a payment in advance,where both agreed to a meeting and would engage in having sex with other.

If I was standing outside the models room and we went to another room and had sex on the spot and I paid her for it, it is not prostitution then?

I think having mutual consenting sex without payment is not considered prostitution. While paying in advance or on the spot for sexual gratification, by two consenting adults is considered prostitution.

If a man or a woman are exchanging gifts or buying a drink for the other, it is not prostitution, even if they perform the act in 2 days from meeting or at the moment they met. It is just two consenting adults liking each other who are attracted to each other sexually, and wishing to jump each others bones.



camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#9 [url]

Jan 23 11 3:37 AM

trainer Im not sure if youre agreeing with me or disagreeing.


QUOTE
"I will pay you xxx amount to have sex with me, or perform a sexual act with me, right then and there, then it is not prostitution?


of course it is. payment for sex=prostitution.

QUOTE
I call up my female friend now and meet her in 3 weeks and agree with her to have sex with me, and I pay her for the act of sexual gratification then is it considered prostitution?


if you pay her yes.

QUOTE
So which action or word defines what prostitution is?


to me paying for the act defines prostitution

QUOTE
it appears that the model was receiving a payment in advance,where both agreed to a meeting and would engage in having sex with other.


the key word is appears, but I think we all know things arent always as they appear and its not fair to slander the model with out knowing all the facts...

QUOTE
If a man or a woman are exchanging gifts or buying a drink for the other, it is not prostitution, even if they perform the act in 2 days from meeting or at the moment they met. It is just two consenting adults liking each other who are attracted to each other sexually, and wishing to jump each others bones.


I agree. So why is assumed this model was engaging in an act of prostitution and not what you described above? A guy sending her gifts (tokens) and her becoming sexual with him the moment they met?

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#10 [url]

Jan 23 11 3:55 AM

Lol... MJ....


QUOTE
trainer Im not sure if youre agreeing with me or disagreeing. 



Neither until now

QUOTE
So i go in a camgirls room and some guy has started a rumor that the model who's room I was in at the time had sexual relations with a member of the site for money and to break a record on cam.


Rumor...started by some guy...

had sexual relations with a member of the site for money

Payment... agreed upon...= prostitution

I think the rumor monger was doing the slandering if it is false.

The statement above does assume that it may/or may not have occurred, but if it did occur for payment, then we could agree it was the act of prostitution.



Just curious.... MJ...What do you think about escorting? Is it prostitution or not? camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#11 [url]

Jan 23 11 4:19 AM

It just seems unlikely to me that the girl would do something like that.. Not have sex for money but the way it was done. Why accept payment in the form of site credit, at most shed get maybe 60% of the cash the guy paid out.. sounds like a bad deal when if she was going to meet up with him a western union for the whole amount wouldve netted her more profit. even if she wins the contest, which isnt guarenteed, the prize from that still might not cover what he spent, plus now she has to pay taxes on it!

I dont know much about escorting trainer.. I would have to say its prostitution as well. Money is exchanged for sex.

But just like so many of the topics on these forum discuss when the concept of friendship is brought into it- it becomes a grey area. Be my friend, pay my bills, tip me tokens, send me jewelery and one night well meet up and have sex.

I personally feel prostitution is illegal and has been illegal forever because men make the laws. If women were allowed to charge for sex who would be the loser in that situation? the men. women have it- men want it, men make the laws. So like with so many other things in history they hide behind religion.



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#12 [url]

Jan 23 11 5:53 AM

The hilarity here (to me at least) is that people are worried about "slandering" the model by calling her a prostitute.

Y'all, this is a forum about sex work. A forum about sex work that hopefully aims to make conditions better for for sex workers. One of the conditions that needs to be made better is the huge stigma against sex work. A woman is not less of a worthy human being if she is a prostitute.

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, I just felt the need to point that out...personally, it doesn't matter to me whether we label the situation "prostitution" or not. The situation doesn't change whether or not you call it prostitution, and that label only really matters (at least as far as I can tell) if you're tied up in giving the term "prostitute" a negative value judgment. The negative value judgment - the shaming - of sex workers, regardless of what kind of sex work we do, is part of creating the oppressive conditions of sex work.

(Escorting is high-end prostitution, to clarify.)

I'm not saying you shouldn't label it prostitution or you should...I certainly would. But the arguing back and forth over whether it is prostitution, to me, just points to the huge problem of the stigma associated with prostitution - a stigma that extends to other forms of sex work, including camming, and which keeps women from having safe, accessible, fairly paid, etc. work environments. It also obscures the issue, because instead of actually talking about the ramifications of what's going on we're arguing semantics.

I feel as though I'm coming off more strongly here than I intend to...I've had a bit of a long, rough day. So I wanted to reiterate that I don't mean this argumentatively...it's just an observation from what I felt reading the thread. I hope that it is alright to post.

la muerte viene siempre / si se pobre o rebelde / no s cmo empezar / otro guerrillero! / ms pobreza, ms violencia /
estos son las consecuencias / no s donde va para / otra guerrillera! / las mujeres en la lucha no pueden parar

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#13 [url]

Jan 23 11 6:29 AM

I agree lookingforwishes.

The part about is it prostitution or not- for me atleast- is a legal issue. So its not just the label with a negative connotation but legal consequences as well.

But I am interested in hearing what you feel the the ramifications of what's going on are when you have more time to post them that is.

Are things transforming camming into a virtual shopping place for prostitues? Or is it just another example of how combining sex, entertainment, and friendship can lead to confusion. Not only about the laws but about whos really doing what and why.

Unless its made public what the exact conversation was between the model and member well never know if it was a paid transaction which would violate most laws, or two people just engaging in a public friends with benefits relationship which however immoral some people may feel it is- is not against the law.


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#14 [url]

Jan 23 11 2:34 PM

I agree with lookingforwishes about our purpose here, which I would interpret as an on-going effort to share observations about what's actually going on with virtual and real "sex commerce" with the aim of "harm reduction."

We have been over this debate about camming and prostitution many times before beginning this thread from 2006/2007: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=262

What strikes me in the comments by Cam-models from Romania or the US is that they object to the "escort option" because it encourages cam-modles who are employed in a legal Video Chat industry to engage in "risky business" activities that are not only illegal but also often unsafe... http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1397

Clearly models like Black Panther are also concerned by the competitive pressure it creates on those cam-models who refuse to meet clients for face2face encounters. Encounters that they refuse because those kinds of meetings open the door to all sorts of health and physical threats that are normally absent from cyber-sex transactions.

The stigma against sex workers who are branded as "whores" is of concern because it not only brings them to the attention of police forces who are often themselves corrupt and violent, but because being labeled that way allows clients to assault or rape them with impunity, that is, with a sense of legal immunity. There's a debate going on in the UK over the repression of "kerb-crawlers" that highlights all of these safety risks for sex workers that follow from the legal prohibition of any sex work activity that's legally defined as "prostitution.."

So the way cam models are labeled and perceived - are they "videochatrista" or "curva pe web-cam?" - has an immediate impact on their personal security and future social mobility.

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#15 [url]

Jan 23 11 4:40 PM

QUOTE
I suppose Im in the minority


That's one of the reasons I stopped posting here more often.

QUOTE
I dont think its for others to judge


Correct and the other reason.

I don't think the internet has invented the oldest job of all the times. Although I used to be less tolerant with that kind of sex work (escorting), I think now we shouldn't judge what others do for living. It doesn't matter what the situations are. Personally I'm not making less money because a cam model meet her clients in real-time. On the vcontrary, they will spend less on shows with her.

QUOTE
So the way cam models are labeled and perceived - are they "videochatrista" or "curva pe web-cam?" - has an immediate impact on their personal security and future social mobility.


I doubt that. In society today, sex appeal is used for popularity - many serious public faces choose to appear naked in magazines, many singers start to get naked on stage even they have good voice and many important men get married/ involved in relationships with women who used their sexuality in one way or another. I don't see how that impact personal security - is not like somebody comes into your house just because u work on webcam and think there's be no legal actions, more probably to sneak at the window
Many models have became good reputable TV stars ( in Romania at least).

Should I mention Robert De Niro who admit that his first movie was an XXX, in '70? He doesn't seem too hit by that either.

Concerning yourself too much about what others do to earn money, makes you earn less

xoxo

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#16 [url]

Jan 23 11 4:56 PM

Maybe I'm getting older. Well for sure. But I'm not turning conservative. But it may be the priorities of life as I see them. While I am grounded in the dignity of individuals and whatever choices they make, I'm beginning to wonder and question those choices. Or more accurately, the degree of free choice, given the option of other choices that should be available, to us all in life.

The debate about prostitution, in the abstact and in other venues is one thing. For it in the cam world venue, seems in a very grey area. If a girl intends to use that venue intentionally for promotion for that line of work, I think that is unfair to the venue and all other models working. If a model crosssed the line, of her own standards, then this is an awfully public place to have herself exposed.

Personally, regardless of one's take on prostitution, I think it should exist in distinct and separate places outside of the cam world. There are enough things that make this world unseemly. This takes it over the top.

I know this seems to be a personal moral judgement, but please read between the lines. I'm more concerned with what life is for the girls involved. I am the first to admit we all "whore" ourselves in one way or another in our own lives. At best, we can try to effect the directionality of our choices.

Edit: Oh and I see CG posting again, just made my day!

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#17 [url]

Jan 23 11 5:04 PM

Wow, excellent responses, MJ, looking, and Uncle.

Personally, I am a harsh critic of the work of camming, as well as sex work.

When I first got involved in the cam world as a client, I saw nothing at all wrong with it. Viewed it as a good way for people to earn money for honorable reasons.

The more I got involved the more I became disillusioned by it, mistreated by someone there, or viewed as something less than who I really am.

Personally, I have never paid to have sex with anyone, and never will.

The problem is when people begin using alternate methods to obtain more money or earnings that are not done in an honest, honorable way, with integrity, can create a disdain for things and people.

These stereotypes and judgements that many of the cam models, I came in contact with, who view or viewed members as, losers, or not worthy of a committed relationship, that something is wrong with this man that did end up on a porn site(for whatever reason-same holds true for a cam model), changed my view of the work entirely.
To say that all members are sick, demented people who may or may not be able to be in a committed relationship is what I have seen from many a cam model, from many other members and at times, seen it from members of this forum as well, just is how fucked up people see or view things about others.

If a member and a cam model do happen to be attracted to each other, what is wrong with it? Or that the two individuals can have a friendship that rivals any other one, is worth the effort, until mutual respect and trust are broken.

I see it a lot now and experienced it, from the view of a member. In time, one gets a very sour taste in one's mouth when being treated as something other than whom they really are. The same holds true for you women.

Equality, with no preconceived stereotypes or judgements. Which means that every person is equal, until they cross or break the proper lines of human interactions and emotions, respect and honor.

How many times, I met anyone in life, anywhere, and gave them equal respect, only to have some personal stereotype reared its ugly head and ruined a great friendship. Or when the greed of making more money from a person that borders on fraud and thievery and deception, to earn an extra buck,that destroys something good between two individuals.

That tends to change a persons view, especially when you see a pattern develop.

That is why, these days, I agree with camgirl... that there should never ever be money exchanged to further a friendship, or to become romantically involved for any reasons, whether it is for pure lust of sex or for a real romantic connection. This is your work girls, and guys you are there to pay for a service, period.

What now is happening, is that too many people are using the lure of sexual exchanges, dinner dates, shows on skype, any way to earn an extra buck, by crossing the lines of the job and mixing it with personal connections as bait.

If I am at my place of work, and I am attracted to someone there, I would ask them if they are interested in a date or dinner or something intimate away from our jobs, to further our friendship or romance. I do not ask a woman out on a date first by saying, "I will give you $50 bucks to go out with me". I mean does that appear normal and proper to all of us?(Don't answer that, it was a rhetorical question, because I am sure there are people who get off on that and see it as a normal act). Yet, this is what is occurring at your places of work, on the premise for making an extra dollar.

In some circles, some of what is occurring can be considered,the solicitation of prostitution even if sex is not exchanged.

Now looking at things unbiasedly, the stigmas that looking and MJ are talking about, is being created by all the unsavory, deceptive acts that have or still do occur in the industry of sex work. If the borderlines are being torn down in a bad way, expect these stigmas and views towards you girls, and from some girls towards members to never disappear, in my humble opinion.

But the minute, someone attempts to use bad motivations,greed, and other methods to take advantage of anyone, anywhere,, there then is a loss of respect and trust.

Too many opportunities for people to abuse and misuse each other for financial motivations, which may or may not border on corrupt or illegal things as well. After a while, you just get sick of getting hurt, misused, misunderstood, and mistreated. That goes for anyone, on either side of the screen.

Now if there is mutual respect for each other, then there is nothing wrong with sending gifts, like flowers or something else, unless people are placing or expecting something more in return. And that, i believe is where the lines are being crosses and misused for other purposes that are not genuine in intentions.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#18 [url]

Jan 23 11 5:15 PM

Sorry MJ, but in this case I must take exception and invoke the Goat Theory.

Have I mentioned that theory before? It goes like this: You can wonder what an animal is, but...if it looks like a goat, sounds like a goat and smells like a goat...you can be pretty sure it is a goat.

Call this a gray area, a legal issue or whatever you wish. But it sure looks, sounds and smells like a goat to me.

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#19 [url]

Jan 23 11 5:29 PM

Welcome back Dean..and it's always good to hear what camgirl has to say...always pertinent... a much needed voice in the mix...
UP
P.S. originally the line was "If it walks like a Duck; Looks like a Duck and Talks like a
Duck, then it probably IS a Duck.."And this was a "rule of thumb" for identifying Communists and their "Fellow Travelers" - not working girls - during the McCarthy Witch Hunt era in the 1950s.

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#20 [url]

Jan 23 11 5:57 PM

thx for welcome.

Dean, that's correct, but... what's wrong with being goat? they have souls too if you don't like the goat smell check another animal and that's it.

And to quote from a Romanian rap band " most whores are not females"

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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