#81 [url]

Jan 26 11 12:34 PM

You are correct about Harry getting asked many inquiries regarding the alleged incident.

And that was what appeared to be done, in what you call attacks of Harry. Burden of proof.

Now How do we all know it is not true either though?

People were attempting to extract and extrapolate information based on rumor and gossip, which was the case as evidenced.

Question is why you went off topic as a comparison, comparing what went on here to private discussions with members from CGN.

Just because someone does not have physical proof of said incidents, but was involved in them, sought out the proof of the actual matter or matters about anything they speak of, does not mean it is all false nor diminishes the possibility that they don't know jack shit.

Honestly, it appears that sometimes, you are seeking the complete truths, and if it doesn't satisfy your own judgement or cynicism, you try to discredit them because some of the things have occurred in camland.

Wow, simply wow.

P.S.-- I am pretty certain Onan will reappear here, with some copied and pasted proof, because he needs and lives for that. Just like I knew he would pop his head on here after all was said and done.

Perhaps, Harry is one of his faithful followers on the forum Onan is a moderator on.

Conjecture so far. I am looking forward to the proof as well, but honestly, to me, it is all bullshit anyway, because it occurred in the fantasy bullshit world of camland you describe it as such.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#82 [url]

Jan 26 11 1:46 PM

Jeez Trainer, don't take it so personally...

QUOTE (TRAINER @ January 26, 2011 07:34 am)
You are correct about Harry getting asked many inquiries regarding the alleged incident.

And that was what appeared to be done, in what you call attacks of Harry. Burden of proof.

Ya.  Seemed to get a little personal to me.

Now How do we all know it is not true either though?

We don't.  That's the point.

People were attempting to extract and extrapolate information based on rumor and gossip, which was the case as evidenced.

People were also trying to teach Mr. Harry a thing or two it seems, about what they consider his personal flaws.  Which is cool too, but there are more effective methods of communication than what I read in some of the posts here.  People don't learn so well when they're in a defensive stance.

Question is why you went off topic as a comparison, comparing what went on here to private discussions with members from CGN.

Haha!  I guess I didn't see it as "off topic" at all.  But rather right ON TOPIC.  People drawing conclusions and making accusations without enough information to do so.  Seemed like a great opportunity to make that point to more than just Harry.  Because the context is the same and because he's not the only one around here who jumps to conclusions.

Just because someone does not have physical proof of said incidents, but was involved in them, sought out the proof of the actual matter or matters about anything they speak of, does not mean it is all false nor diminishes the possibility that they don't know jack shit.

As if it will make any difference, but I wasn't talking about you.

Honestly, it appears that sometimes, you are seeking the complete truths, and if it doesn't satisfy your own judgement or cynicism, you try to discredit them because some of the things have occurred in camland.

Yes!!  I do seek out the truth.  And if someone is talking shit, sure I'll discredit them.  With the truth.  But here again, I wasn't talking about you.  Nor did I point the finger at anyone specifically, now did I? 

Wow, simply wow.

My sentiments exactly.  o_O

P.S.-- I am pretty certain Onan will reappear here, with some copied and pasted proof, because he needs and lives for that. Just like I knew he would pop his head on here after all was said and done.

Who cares??

Perhaps, Harry is one of his faithful followers on the forum Onan is a moderator on.

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.  Again, who cares??  But he came here, and wasn't looking to start anything.  I think more so, looking for confirmation on the story from us.

Conjecture so far. I am looking forward to the proof as well, but honestly, to me, it is all bullshit anyway, because it occurred in the fantasy bullshit world of camland you describe it as such.

Yes.  It's conjecture.  And not knowing for sure one way or the other makes debate pointless.  We agree on that too.


Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#83 [url]

Jan 26 11 2:36 PM

Lol,Coolbreeze.

I got the gist of your post. But the way it appeared can be misconstrued just like anything else.

Well, apparently, Harry cared. Onan cared. They both posted here.

In general, I feel Harry did get the point everyone was writing to him. He just didn't like feeling that his point was being disputed or just viewed as hearsay.

You continually are saying "who cares".

Then why not just delete the entire thread, because it does not prove a rats ass of any truthful facts other than what rumors and the hearsay of a group of members on a website where apparently prostitution has made its face shown.

That's what the models and I were attempting to ascertain from someone seeking the facts of the matter.

What Harry should have done is go to the source, apparently Onan seems to be one he looks up to. But he just had to come here and verify things about a so called rumor. I say in that specific point, you are correct, who the fuck cares about what he wanted to verify. But what is important is if it did occur then these models have a new twist to deal with and that really matters.

It does indicate how the transformation of camming is morphing into some sort of meet and greet atmosphere where face to face interactions are becoming more commonplace.

Something I alluded to years ago on CGN. Seems the most important discussion should not be someones twisted view of what improper or proper prostitution is all about when it comes to the world of camming.

The truth of the matter and the facts are, that many models now are watching what they thought was a safe, non contact job thats becoming increasingly a place where hooking up and making mo money off their clients by meeting them in a more personal environment in being created, allowed to occur by the websites and especially most importantly, the colleagues of models and the demands of lustful depraved sex starved porn addicts..

I kept hinting to the other things that do go on away from their work and attempt to make an informed connection with observed research in finding the truth of it all. Real time in the bunker observations.

The models are increasingly crossing the boundaries where they feel making money any way is what counts the most, and many other models are becoming disgusted and worried how far it will be allowed to continue.

That is the most important thing other than some customer whom needs his own fears and confused concerns realized about how his addiction to cam models is proper or improper prostitution. He just proved to all of us that it is occurring.

Not that we all were tough with him.

Pimping, it takes on a new face these days and a new definition.

I wrote over a year ago how what is occurring on MFC is changing the lines of boundaries of what people will do for the thrill , the joy and the entertainment that they all seek and desire.

So, who the fuck cares? I suppose the models that don't wish to meet some strange man who has the luxury of paying for sex over the internet. Or the women who have no choice but to, of free will, have to accept this job and learn what it takes to make bank, and could evolve into what is expected of them.Simply because other models feel the need to make it more like a craigslist or backpage connection community with no concerns and cares as to what other people feel about it.

I speak for all of those people who are trapped into something they dislike. For all the people who are desperate and wish there was some other way other than porn and where online camming is headed towards.

What really is important as well, is how people like Harry and Onan, are seeking the video and to spread it possibly over the internet, simply because he feels he is helping his fellow man. Nothing more than just another form of pimping da hoes, ain't it.

So again who the f cares when others have a different view of things that go beyond just the present moment that people find themselves stuck in. It goes way past just the present here and now.

It really was an indication of how there is inequalities everywhere these days, whether it is in a fantasy based business or in the real world and how you appeared to condemn and berate others(other than me) in their opinions and beliefs.

Perhaps, they have substantial proofs as well but like some others "Can equally say, I don't have to tell you anything nor prove myself".

Yes, take a moment and look deeper into what is being written between the lines. Because if it has to be written in bold letters to get it out there, some people are going to really get angry at each other.

And to me that really fucking matters for everyone.




camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#84 [url]

Jan 26 11 3:19 PM

Let's not take my words out of context. I said "who cares?" about whether or not Onan came back here to post, and about whether or not Harry was a member of his forum.

What I condemn and berate are accusations and attacks based on nothing but rumors and personal perception. If someone's going to bring them as facts, they had better be prepared to back them up. Or be open to the possibility that they're wrong. Let's be clear on this point too.

QUOTE
The truth of the matter and the facts are, that many models now are watching what they thought was a safe, non contact job thats becoming increasingly a place where hooking up and making mo money off their clients by meeting them in a more personal environment in being created, allowed to occur by the websites and especially most importantly, the colleagues of models and the demands of lustful depraved sex starved porn addicts..


I'd say that's pretty close to the truth. And there is already another thread discussing exactly that. Actually I suspect there's more than one. At least I'd hope there is.

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#85 [url]

Jan 26 11 3:32 PM

Guys speaking of snipers, let's stop sniping at each other. Especially because there's a broad consensus and concern about the erosion of the boundaries between the virtual and real forms of the sex trade that we all see - admins, models and silver members - and I might add even the pirates who stop in here from time to time.. So let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees.

Trainer, I don't believe that Cool Breeze was talking about you. Indeed he just posted recently some comments singing your praises, so please there's no need to be so defensive..

It's Cool Breeze's role as Non-Model Mod to dampen the flame wars.. and to monitor the bad guys.. That's why we brought him on board...
But you're not one of them.

Trainer, You are one of our greatest resources..
So there's no point in looking for disagreements where they don't really exist...

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#86 [url]

Jan 26 11 4:07 PM

QUOTE
So, who the fuck cares? I suppose the models that don't wish to meet some strange man who has the luxury of paying for sex over the internet.


I might be in minority, but even I don't wish to meet any strange man, I don't really care if that specific model did. It happened before, probably it will happen again. There is nothing "new" or "never seen" - if the girl charged for sex we talk about the oldest job in the world, don't matter where it happen, broadcasting or not, recorded and distributed or not. There are ex street prostitutes who found cam work more convenient and old behaviors die hard. And after all, they are free to do what they want.

As a model, I don't think that's a competition for me because it's a service I don't provide, so her clients are sure not my target. If the members want to step the boards, it's something to deal with, but always been.

I'm more concerned about the motivations of these guys who gossip about the models, about who slept with whom, imagine scenarios and judge others morally because in their lives nothing interesting is happening and spread the dirt outside because of their personal dramas.

Talking about legality, prostitution is illegal in some countries, indeed, but recording illegally is everywhere. So it's almost funny to hear the guys who want copies of the recorded shows without copyright, stepping on the recorded person's desire for privacy, who are now talking about legality.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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onan

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Posts: 85

#87 [url]

Jan 26 11 5:07 PM

Uh, what is this recurring theme that I "came back to post?" I never left; if you're referring to what I wrote in the off topic forum I said I was done with that specific thread.

As for your questions Coolbreeze, I can't answer any of them without giving away certain details and/or methods that need to remain private. Suffice to say I wouldn't risk looking foolish on here by writing a list of facts that I hadn't vetted to my satisfaction.

As for Harry, I've no idea who he is. He very well could belong to the other forum, I don't recall seeing that name however.

The private show was real; the customer is #1 on this model's list, is well known in her inner circle, (of which I am not a member btw, I've never even talked to this girl) and often drops lavish gifts on her, e.g. a $500 bottle of wine.

What 'motivates' me to devote attention to this incident is the utter hypocrisy of the model involved. When the open tipping atmosphere was introduced to this site a few months back, she was the most outspoken in her room and on their forums, calling the site classless and declaring that girls were 'auctioning off body parts for pennies' in a virtual whore house. That they couldn't pay her enough to sacrifice her dignity in that fashion. That the participating models had no self respect or sense of self worth.

Now she prostitutes her way into the site record books. Perhaps her outrage was at the term 'virtual', I don't know. But it is hilarious.

onan

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#88 [url]

Jan 26 11 5:47 PM

well I would hope this thread doesnt get deleted or edited down any further..

there were many topics of discussion that sprang from harrys post and none of them have clear cut answers, its all subjective to the poster.

-what is the difference between commercial prostitution transactions and freinds with mutual benefits? Are they both illegal- is one more morally acceptable then the other? How can you tell the difference?

-Is real life meetings happening more often between camgirls and members? regardless if it was paid for or not, a rumor or truth, just like way back when anal wasnt a common request in chat rooms, things evolved and now it is. Is that whats happening with real time meetings? it will not only become the norm, but members will expect it. How does that effect the models? the industry in general?

-why do some people obsess so much over models and what they do in their personal time? Its like with celebrities, you see someone whos sucessful, whos attractive and confident, and then tabloids pop up spewing rumors and painting them in the most negative light. why do people do that to others? Is it out of jealously? making someone who appears to be unobtainable seem more in reach? Or is it just that misery loves company?

I think the thread is also a good warning about not believing everything you see or read online. the dangers of jumping to conclusions and like Breeze said-"As long as we choose to come to them ourselves rather than letting someone else do it for us by accepting rumor as fact. Some information is served to the public in such a way as to specifically leave room for speculation. On purpose. So they come to the desired conclusion (even though it's false) on their own. Don't be one of the schmucks who gobbles down everything they're fed."

It also calls attention to the fact that studios and websites and models use marketing ploys. Is that different from a scam? Or just more acceptable because its labeled and viewed as markerting?

Now these arent questions that I expect anyone to answer- just the topics of debate that i see here. And each one of them worth discussing.

On a seperate note its troubling to me that Onan says "I can't answer any of them without giving away certain details and/or methods that need to remain private" I wont even specualte on what these methods are- but for anyone who just thinks pirates are harmless and their only focus is on posting clips.. some may be, but others should be classified as hackers. If youre a model, privacy needs to be your number one priority, then income.


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#89 [url]

Jan 26 11 7:30 PM

QUOTE
Perhaps her outrage was at the term 'virtual', I don't know.


If it was an actual sexual contact, it's prostitution, nothing virtual about it. It doesn't matter if the client paid by card or in cash.

About the methods you say you practice to find if it's real or not... Saying " I can't tell that" is classic reply when actually there might not be any proof. (I'm not saying it is not, just impossible to verify because you 'can't tell".) So we can only believe you or not, a very subjective choice. I personally tend to think you might be right because I know some models are foolish, but that's just an opinion and not a conclusion after seeing the proofs.

QUOTE
why do some people obsess so much over models and what they do in their personal time? Its like with celebrities, you see someone who's successful, who's attractive and confident, and then tabloids pop up spewing rumors and painting them in the most negative light. why do people do that to others? Is it out of jealously? making someone who appears to be unobtainable seem more in reach?


Yes, that's what I think it is, too. People who don't have money to spend on shows, or to pay a prostitute, for their thing and go home... they get frustrated because impossibility to obtain that something. Like in star stories magazines, very much sold, the message is clear: the public wants a piece of them ( their success, reputation, anything).If they can't get it, they start to act crazy and demonize them ( in reality, they let free their own demons).

I think many members are envious of models because they earn money by getting naked, while nobody would pay the members to get naked, so they work harder ( in appearance) for their money. Also, for many, the models represent the women they can never get in real life. If a member does it, they get envious of his money because it made that possible. So it's a unending concern for others lives and a hobby to mess with what they can't get.

And it is interesting that when there's no clear proof, to see how people believe without thinking for themselves any bad rumor. That because they enjoy thinking bad about others anyway. It's the same phenomena when a beautiful girl is the subject of rumor and innuendo even she's a saint and doesn't work in any adult field, just for the simple reason that she's beautiful.

We all seen in chatroom people who are milk and honey and apparently they are the sweetest guys, then they ask to see something for free ( like the sweet mood was obvious just an act to get what they want.. and like that should work ) and if the model refuses, they start to be really mean and low ( showing their real face). From "I love you" to "you stupid whore" in the very next second. I kind of find that funny because it shows really deranged personalities, but they actually don't care if they appear as being schizophrenic. ( most probably some really are).


CG

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#90 [url]

Jan 26 11 9:37 PM

Harrys 1st post..

QUOTE
Now for some reason its bothering me even though its none of my business. I know what kind of garbage gets said about people who do this kind of work and some it maybe deserved sometimes but, how could anyone seriously steep so low to possibly literally whore themselves out on cam for money and a title. it kinda breaks my heart a little to hear stuff like that because despite what gets said about this business there are lines that most if not all of the people working in it wouldn't cross and to think someone may have crossed this type of line its sorta sad.


It bothers you Harry because its how you perceive what the cam world and models should be. How dare they step outside your own moral standards and convictions. Cross a line that is only set in ur closed mind.
Really Big deal if she had sex with a member for whatever reasons and money was involved.... im not surprised one bit

I think sometimes you people here are so fixated in ur own little cam world ...at times))) well some are ..not all)

How many porno girls now do cam work?
How many strippers ( past and present do cam work?
How many cam girls have meet members had sex and a shopping trip was involved?
How many cam girls in Russia would also be involved in prostitution?
How may cam girls have married a member?
How come i didnt find Miss Janes room, so i could buy here a years supply of tobacco and get a hot date?))

So Harry, you can't fathom a cam model meeting a member for paid sex?.... Well I guess you havent really seen any crazy shit at all.

Yep, prostitution is illegal in most places... How many whores ( ur words) work in ur country?? .. Take Thailand for example. Prostitution is illegal , they have around 300 000 people working as sex workers catering to foreign sex tourists. Pumps around 2 billion dollars into the economy. You pay a bar fine to take a woman from the bar. Then you negotiate a price for her taxi fare to go home..... thats not illegal.

Neither is it illegal if i tip MJ and buy her smokes and a BIG bunch of flowers and favorite chocolates and she rewards my sweetness with a roll between the sheets . Now of coarse i wouldnt be a gentleman if I didnt offer to compensate her for breaking her grandmothers crystal vase on the bedroom dresser while i got a little crazy in the moment of passion.......

As Charlie Sheen once said I never pay a woman for sex, i pay her to leave the next morning

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#91 [url]

Jan 26 11 9:38 PM

I agree, camgirl:



QUOTE

If it was an actual sexual contact, it's prostitution, nothing virtual about it. It doesn't matter if the client paid by card or in cash.


Or in tokens by winning a raffle. Or that it has become part of your industry, those broken boundaries are encroaching upon you.

Your point is taken, Coolbreeze.

I have a question, though.

It seems someone created a flame war without any blasphemous words used. Either way it did create one, nonetheless,didn't it.

Perhaps, others members may feel defensive as well to an extent here.

Your absolutely correct Uncle. The point is that this very rumor or truth or the actual act, points to what some cam models elsewhere and here, have voiced their concerns and complaints at times.

How many times does a friend of mine tell me daily about all these members seeking personal, one on one, contact?

Quite a few experienced models on this forum state that as well.

It is becoming so frequent that for some it just is so pathetic for them and annoying that it is a reflection of what is occurring more and more each and every day for them. I am sure there is not one camgirl on this planet that has not had to face this issue and deal with it.
For some models they think just romancing a member by actually meeting them is of no consequence to others or have not even thought how their actions could and do affect another person. Oh yes, I remember, they probably don't think of the consequences or repercussions, even to them it was or is harmless fun. Or perhaps, they don't realize that all those invites are transforming their working environments, until they might be required to meet a winner of a contest against their own wishes. I am just theorizing, but it is a possibility.



I wish to also point out, that you gals on here, may not be too concerned about it, because you are more concerned about maintaining your approach to the work and your own goals and values that you all believe are proper for yourselves. But the truth is all around you while you do your own things and just concern yourselves with what matters the most, your own issues.

If you are voicing your annoyance about it in other posts in other threads then it is affecting you to some degree. Kind of reminds me of a house on fire all around someone, yet the room you are all in is safe for now. Eventually, it could engulf you and destroy that room too(unless you have a super protective firewall)

The walls are slowly deteriorating and cracking. Don't you at least think you should speak out against the things you complain about a little louder?

It also connects and parallels many posts here about members meeting these models. I hope and trust that for some that have posted here regarding meeting these women, that they are doing it in a good way and not with a different set of motivations, that camgirl mentions too.

Do I really give a crap if a woman, who works as a cam model wants to sleep with a member. It is her decision and the members decision. But who then becomes a hypocrite in the eyes of a person or an entire website, who seems to enjoy outing the hypocrite person he feels as justice served.


The very discussion, the debate of the rumor or truth, which most likely is not a rumor reflects a change in things.

Maybe a poll to models asking:

If within the near future the job duties expected of a camgirl would require a model to meet a member who won some marketing contest via a website ( if it should become commonplace), then would they still consider camming as a job?

Or a simpler question: How do you feel about meeting clients? How do you feel about models that do incorporate the act of prostitution into the cam world?

The list of debatable questions is long now.

If the frequency and inquiries and expectations are increasing, then what is that an indication of?

So I do not care what some decide to do for the sake of money, but I do concern myself for the naive, gullible and possible awe and shock, that may come in the future for many others.

The problem is not what a person does on their personal time, but it does appear some are turning the other cheek when the only things that matters is what is most important to and for themselves.

So how does that protect anyone or make it safer for others as well?

Well here we are, CGN, debating something that needs to be debated, because eventually what is rare today becomes common and the norm tomorrow.



camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#92 [url]

Jan 26 11 10:18 PM

well who knows how the cam world will evolve??...

maybe there will be a section on cam site where u can get a chance to meet the model for a date.....

not every cam girl on the planet works at MFC.... rememberr that.

many different site catering to different clientds.

on some sites u can work in soft core, hardcore little shy , glam , just friends, marriage....

or thee is dating site you can goto......with live cams.......

or if u like cock u can goto chat roulett..... for free and have a wank

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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#93 [url]

Jan 27 11 12:23 AM

Trainer, you are spot on.. asking just the right question - even though you're not alone in reading the "handwriting on the wall.." Indeed Black Panther may have beat you to it.. but didn't pose the question as straightforwardly as you just did now.

And Facile is quite right too in breaking down MJ's challenge to us into a series of specific questions that can actually be researched empirically.. So time to do some more digging, Guys and Gals...

BTW, I just saw another MFC model, a Romanian, or a Russian perhaps, living in Paris (??), proposing a raffle with a "Day in EuroDisney Paris" - and herself as tour guide as the prize... Hmmm, just more clever self-promotion by an enterprising "fille de l'Est?"..

How much longer until when the studios make this sort of "innocent fraternization" with foreign clients a job-expectation?? Or has that already happened in one Bucharest Studio which shall remain forever unnamed here??

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#94 [url]

Jan 27 11 4:51 AM

Facile, those are some great questions.

I can name 2 cam sites off the top of my head that have been featuring porn stars as wannabe cam models.


I mentioned that a long time ago here as well. I posed a simple question to the models which got dismissed or not noticed.

I guess silence is golden, or is it fear of accepting or facing the obvious.

The porn star invasion is at full throttle. Hmm.. I recall some saying this work is not pornography, well is it or isn't it?

Strippers... hmm... I don't see much of a difference on the surface. Except strippers while working the clubs, do not perform sexual acts on stage for their adoring fans. But perhaps, they do go home with one or two sometimes as was pointed out in a another thread here on CGN.

My point is that watching models who are frustrated by the changing climate in the industry that they seem to appear like deer in a cars headlights. It looks like fear. Maybe it is frustration or perhaps anger.

How many have married a member, I presume the percentage is very small. Another question might be, How many of those marriages succeeded? How many failed?

Lol, I like your humor Facile, but how do you know MJ smokes?

For the women who have no choice but to work in a studio, can you even imagine you being told:Oh, all you will have to do is have some nice conversation, wear your lingerie and be happy. Hmm... is that it? Or is there more to be expected when these same women can not draw in the customers and keep them there when their bosses are threatening them to produce more.

Imagine that you really don't want to cross that line and then what are your options? Where is the freedom of choice then or the free will, doesn't appear that there is any to me.

Well as to the rest of your questions, I can make a good guestimate and be pretty close.

I really am not debating whether it is a question of morals or ethics, thats up to each individual. But to picture the future and look back at the past, of all this, I can only say, I haven't noticed any change but the numbers increasing. I wonder what that is a result of or from. I know the answer.

Facile, if this is the only way for someone to get someplace they want to end up eventually, but the rules continually are changing and the lines of boundaries for many are disappearing, do you feel that somehow something else can or could be done or offered as an alternative to the thousands who won't make that boundary crossing?

Or perhaps, one must sacrifice in ways never imagined in their lives.

As Bob Dylan sang, Times they are A-changing...

But do any have a real voice or choice in those changes?


camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#95 [url]

Jan 27 11 10:20 AM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ January 27, 2011 12:23 am)
How much longer until when the studios make this sort of "innocent fraternization" with foreign clients a job-expectation??

One model at LJ was filling out a questionnaire yesterday that included the inquiry of whether she does 'overnight bookings'. I believe the survey was for the 'fan club' page that LJ promotes...

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#96 [url]

Jan 27 11 3:09 PM

QUOTE
I wish to also point out, that you gals on here, may not be too concerned about it, because you are more concerned about maintaining your approach to the work and your own goals and values that you all believe are proper for yourselves. But the truth is all around you while you do your own things and just concern yourselves with what matters the most, your own issues.

If you are voicing your annoyance about it in other posts in other threads then it is affecting you to some degree. Kind of reminds me of a house on fire all around someone, yet the room you are all in is safe for now. Eventually, it could engulf you and destroy that room too(unless you have a super protective firewall)

The walls are slowly deteriorating and cracking. Don't you at least think you should speak out against the things you complain about a little louder?


I just don't get the slippery slope argument going on here. It's extremely common for strippers and former/current pornstars to become cam models - most major camsites (LJ, Streamate, IMLive, etc.) specifically ask when you sign up if you ARE a pornstar and they put you in a special category. And I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the only prostitute-turned-camgirl And yet these things have gone on for quite some time now and we all still have jobs.

I am mildly concerned about the meeting-in-real-life since I was a prostitute and while it's something I would consider doing again, there are very specific reasons why I am a camgirl instead now. (And I've been meaning to post on the related thread CoolBreeze made to talk about the line between virtual and physical sex work - but I am incredibly busy right now because I have to go out of town til Monday and I'm stressed over that, so I haven't been around as much.) But a) I don't think it's appropriate to generalize based on things that happen at MFC because MFC is incredibly different from the majority of camsites (where you are not even permitted to share contact info let alone discuss meeting, although yes, customers are pushy) and b) because these things are even relatively rare at MFC - seriously, I don't see this becoming radically commonplace in the next few years, at least not such that it'd be promoted by the sites themselves. And although plenty of guys talk about meeting and yes, it is aggravating when they pressure, for every guy that does there are five or ten who don't - because if they wanted a prostitute they'd have sought out a prostitute, and my guess is most of them don't want the headache, the possible legal repercussions (if they live in a country where it is illegal), or the social repercussions (if they are married or something like that). A lot of guys talk about wanting things - Jesus, if I had a dollar for every time a guy proposed to me, talked about proposing to me, or said he wished I was his wife/girlfriend because he is unhappy with his real wife/girlfriend - but not that many of them will take it very far. They might pressure you for phone numbers or email addresses or whatever, but if push came to shove I think only a minority of them would be serious about meeting in real life. There's a reason they're customers of camsites and not prostitutes, and I doubt it's that far removed from the reason why camgirls choose this over prostitution and other forms of sex work.

Edited to add: And look at a site like Adultwork. It costs a lot to see a camgirl there and there are escort listings - and some of the camgirls also work as escorts. And yet somehow the camgirls there still make decent money and aren't out of jobs. I don't think a roof-is-crumbling scenario is that realistic.

la muerte viene siempre / si se pobre o rebelde / no s cmo empezar / otro guerrillero! / ms pobreza, ms violencia /
estos son las consecuencias / no s donde va para / otra guerrillera! / las mujeres en la lucha no pueden parar

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#97 [url]

Jan 27 11 5:41 PM

QUOTE
I just don't get the slippery slope argument going on here. It's extremely common for strippers and former/current pornstars to become cam models - most major camsites (LJ, Streamate, IMLive, etc.) specifically ask when you sign up if you ARE a pornstar and they put you in a special category. And I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't the only prostitute-turned-camgirl wink.gif And yet these things have gone on for quite some time now and we all still have jobs.


I understand your point here, looking, but many of the non professional women were never experienced pornstars, nor expect to be one, nor do they accept or consider the work pornographic in nature.

I believe there is a disparity between East and West, as to the objectives, and career goals in comparison.

For the young college student, who does this for the purpose of paying for school or quick cash and not as a career, to get in and get out, is much different in comparison to the well seasoned and professional sex worker, who may have chose the work as a career, is different.

For all of those ladies, and I surmise there are more of them from other countries than from more developed richer countries the decision to cross a boundary or boundaries is something quite a few do not wish, want, nor expect to deal with or perform.

Especially the ones who are not independent freelancers, they are limited in their opportunities and choices.

QUOTE
But a) I don't think it's appropriate to generalize based on things that happen at MFC because MFC is incredibly different from the majority of camsites (where you are not even permitted to share contact info let alone discuss meeting, although yes, customers are pushy)



It happens on all the camsites not just MFC, where yes, the members can not share info but there is many ways of getting around the system. MFC, is just the less strictest of all the sites.

QUOTE
because these things are even relatively rare at MFC - seriously, I don't see this becoming radically commonplace in the next few years, at least not such that it'd be promoted by the sites themselves.


I do not think it is relatively rare. You just may not see it on the surface, but trust me, it is more prevalent. And it was usually hush hush, but with the advent of MFC free socialization community, one can see it be asked alot these days.

QUOTE
at least not such that it'd be promoted by the sites themselves.


Maybe not by the websites, but I do see it promoted and marketed more and more these days by the models on MFC.

Examples:

Win a date with me this month contest.

Win a 2 week stay at a hotel, dinner, and a massage.

Win a chance to direct or write your own porn movie with the model and even star in it.

Win a trip to South America, and come hang out with 2 models.

There are more and more ways to bait and lure members that are surfacing these days.

QUOTE
And although plenty of guys talk about meeting and yes, it is aggravating when they pressure, for every guy that does there are five or ten who don't - because if they wanted a prostitute they'd have sought out a prostitute, and my guess is most of them don't want the headache, the possible legal repercussions (if they live in a country where it is illegal), or the social repercussions (if they are married or something like that). A lot of guys talk about wanting things



I have observed the opposite of what you described. It happens more frequently than you may realize. I was asked by a few models to meet them. That was not even based upon any monetary exchanges.

QUOTE
talked about proposing to me, or said he wished I was his wife/girlfriend because he is unhappy with his real wife/girlfriend - but not that many of them will take it very far. They might pressure you for phone numbers or email addresses or whatever, but if push came to shove I think only a minority of them would be serious about meeting in real life. There's a reason they're customers of camsites and not prostitutes, and I doubt it's that far removed from the reason why camgirls choose this over prostitution and other forms of sex work.


I have checked out the demographics of the members who visit these websites. Many are divorced, seperated, single, in bad marriages, older men. Many of them are well to do. I have watched the chat, on quite a few websites, where the mention of a meeting has been brought up. Then you can watch and read others who say they have met, expect to meet or visit a model or their country.

I believe that for these members they feel better about themselves chancing a face to face meeting with a camgirl than a prostitute. For one thing, a member will visit a foreign country, see the sights, experience a nice trip and whatever else they can or may wish to do, whereas, with a prostitute, I highly doubt they would fly 3,000 miles to get laid and then return home.

camgirlnotes/bq.gif

P.S.- You are quite welcome for the tissues.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#98 [url]

Jan 27 11 8:22 PM

QUOTE (TRAINER @ January 27, 2011 04:51 am)


QUOTE
Lol, I like your humor Facile, but how do you know MJ smokes?


because quite a while ago I posted this-
"ah but i suppose its just far too easy to judge others. I once had a guy come into chat that was begging me to put on some kind of free show. It went on and on for a while and then i finally told him something like I was there to make money and not about to give a free show no matter how much he begged. He got snappy and said if i quit smoking I could save hundreds of dollars every year and wouldnt need to be hustling for money online. Yes Im a smoker and for me they fall more into the neccesity catagory then the luxury one. Sure I could quit and be better off financially but right now I dont want to. Its how I choose to spend the money that I have. long story short, another member decided he was going to send me money specifically for me to use to buy cigarettes with. It was a lovely gesture and I didnt refuse him.

So every so often i recieve money towards cigarettes frim him. What does he get out of it? I dunno. I did ask once and he said he likes to think that i think of him everytime I open a pack and with a carton costing nearly 70 dollars I dont complain."

Now i really dont believe nor do I think anyone here thinks facile is a hacker or a stalker or means any harm. Its just an example of how people pay more attention to details then you might think, and if someone so desires its easy to gather up information about a model if the model is not extremely vigilant on what they say, do, post or show on cam..

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#99 [url]

Jan 27 11 8:29 PM

Ok, MJ.... Sorry, I missed that awhile back or forgot that I read it.

camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   

#100 [url]

Jan 27 11 9:31 PM

QUOTE
I believe there is a disparity between East and West, as to the objectives, and career goals in comparison.

For the young college student, who does this for the purpose of paying for school or quick cash and not as a career, to get in and get out, is much different in comparison to the well seasoned and professional sex worker, who may have chose the work as a career, is different.

For all of those ladies, and I surmise there are more of them from other countries than from more developed richer countries the decision to cross a boundary or boundaries is something quite a few do not wish, want, nor expect to deal with or perform.

Especially the ones who are not independent freelancers, they are limited in their opportunities and choices.


Yes, I am fully aware of this, Trainer. But thanks for the reminder

la muerte viene siempre / si se pobre o rebelde / no s cmo empezar / otro guerrillero! / ms pobreza, ms violencia /
estos son las consecuencias / no s donde va para / otra guerrillera! / las mujeres en la lucha no pueden parar

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