#41 [url]

Feb 18 11 5:16 PM

QUOTE
But if the client come into a cam girl show, imagining he'll get laid soon cause he's paying a rate/min on cam, or if he imagine that model stays for ages on cam to find the love of her life.. well, that's his problem if his imagination gets crazy.

I call it naivete.Sometimes stupidity.Sometimes craziness.
QUOTE
If the model advertise herself of looking for real life romance or that she escorts and in fact she doesnt (ive seen that too, models who say they meet in real, in order to 'talk about that" in private) that's scam/fake advertising.

Here it is!U made a conection between what I was talkin about and real meetings that Trainer was mentioning here.I have a colleague who met a regular,i will try to find out why did she,then I ll post her example here.Tho I can guess why she did it.Its "the power of mastercard".

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#42 [url]

Feb 18 11 5:26 PM

well.. that means she already had the ability of sucking of the mastercard, in real life connections too.
For instance I know i couldnt do it. I can keep a client in private with fantasies and role ply, and shows, but I'd never could ask a guy to go with me to shopping and pay what I choose.
I know girls who do that and are not sex workers, it's a specific way of thinking, that most of the times is not even learned. It exist by default and here, thinking about what that guy expect instead or his feelings is not useful either. If they'd think too much about and be sensible persons in the same time, they couldnt do it. So it's a specific profile for that.

But it's much more OK to work for those money and spend them without those kind of links and be in the position of being expected to do or be somehow in exchange. It's a lot of freedom, both psychical and physical.
I have girlfriends who think I waste my time by spending time online and doing shows, when i could "suck a daddy's money" in less time, and of course, they see the cam work as a background for their well known purposes, and date sites do just as good. And of course "the daddies' are used with spoiling the women in order to get some attention, so might be win-win situation (with some loss, if he spends more than he had in mind firstly, or not getting what he wants/expects)

But what works for them, doenst work for me. besides that, i understand that kind of connection. They sure come after and complain about "being scammed" , while they themselves went into that kind of 'relationship" and have some expectations from it. I find childish the way they dont assume it, just like some guys spend money on shows then if the wife finds out " I didnt do it, it wasnt me, my card has been hacked for sure" :-)

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#43 [url]

Feb 18 11 5:43 PM

QUOTE
They sure come after and complain about "being scammed" , while they themselves went into that kind of 'relationship" and have some expectations from it.

Yes its their choice but many times with the participation of the model.A lot of models prefere to create ilusions for extra $.It would be easier to let them know that u just dont meet anyone and u re not in front of cam to find love of ur life(in case that u re really not looking for it) than let them believe that they can get u.Or work ur ass harder to get those money and dont scam.
But anyway we will not change a thing with our bla-bla here.

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#44 [url]

Feb 18 11 5:48 PM

Trainer,

There is no argument. No one is disagreeing with andradavalent's point of the thread or your points contributing to the thread. No one is saying you are projecting or imagining this phenomenon. There are degrees of agreement and disagreement on various points, but not the general theme.

Our "argument" is about something different. Within the tread, I made a corrective distinction to something camgirl wrote. It was tangential to the theme of the thread. It wasn't meant to take the thread off track. Where the thread went off track is that you applied what I wrote pertaining to that small distinct separate issue from the thread, and applied it to the bigger issue that I don't disagree with.


QUOTE
TRAINER Now I ask you all again, do we agree that members knowingly and consciously are seeking real time meetings, more often, to sow their oats, to find the loves of their lives or it is figment of my imagination?


So no, it is not a figment of your imagination. Please reread all of the posts, because.......no one said you were imagining this.

Now as far as really going off track:

QUOTE
TRAINERSo in essence you have your friend, a model, who has to learn to desensitize her feelings and even play along with these members in order to get through her job. Hmmmm.... I recall a model asking in public chat, why do people view her as a slut? I wonder.....


The answer to your question is no, no, no. I might not have made communicated this point fully:

QUOTE
noname01So it is possible to not be affected or need to disassociate.


But my point was that I had long assumed and had concern that desensitization would be the inevitable effect on a performer. You or I might think that would be the only result to a sensitive person, such as us. camgirlnotes/bq.gif However my friend educated me over time to a different point of view. And I see that it is healthy for her. And she regards people with respect (even if they are behaving rudely, badly, or intrusively). She makes a distinction between the person and their behavour. Pretty cool, I though unique, but a more common aproach to the job than might be apparent.

I'll try to use an example. Let's say our paying job is to shovel horse shit out of a stable. It's a simple job, just a job. Does the job affect us so much that we has to desensitize ourselves, or disassociate, do we develop fetishes and want to eat shit, do we what to ride to horses? I'm giving some funny absurd examples, but some can relate to questions asked about camming. I haven't really developed the analogy. But my point is we would do the job, maybe even enjoy it or not. We might pose the question am I being exploited by the horse or the owner. Maybe the horse shouldn't be penned up and should run free. But at the end of the day, it would be a paycheck and the rest of one's life would be one's own.

There are many legitimate concerns in this cam world. But I am sharing what my friends experience is, granted all the good, bad, and ugly, it is really insignificant to her life. Definitely not what she would choose to do, but the heaviness we would assume is just not there. Would she quit tomorrow, yes. But the things we think regarding the words and things seen, do not have material reality that we (here I will use the word) are projecting.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#45 [url]

Feb 18 11 6:20 PM


QUOTE
But anyway we will not change a thing with our bla-bla here.


I agree.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#46 [url]

Feb 18 11 7:12 PM

QUOTE (andradavalent @ February 18, 2011 12:43 pm)

But anyway we will not change a thing with our bla-bla here.

I agree too. But it's good to talk about what IS. And how to deal with that.

The mental separation both noname and camgirl described is exactly how I would expect the most successful performers to operate. It's HEALTHY and unless performing is your life, it's also the safest way to disallow the things that go on in Camland (all of them) to affect who you are. It's a job. It is what it is. Saying that doesn't mean I loath members, but it better clarifies what I've tried to communicate in the past about my stance on how performers should view "members". Not as some sub-species, but separate. Mentally.

How each performer operates morally is up to them. Even their definitions of morality will vary widely as with any other job in the entire world. There are going to be performers who financially rape the hell out of members on and off site, and there are going to be performers who have a more ethical approach to the business. That's just our nature as a species. Nothing is going to change that.

Members are the customers. Who come in all different mental shapes and sizes, and most importantly, come with a much wider range of motivations.

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#47 [url]

Feb 18 11 7:55 PM

Amuse me guys for a moment here.

Have I not read how members seeking romance or the lack of mutual respect and boundaries drives the models who have no desire to have any sort of connection with a member.... crazy, annoying.... ignorant bla bla bla.

So bla bla bla, stop complaining about it then, But hey have you not realized why it occurs or continues?

Yeah, camgirl men will be men, and girls will be girls. But what about the non anecdotal evidence. Pirate forums where they discuss meetings. Or the actual fact that I posted, just a few gals who market themselves for some sort of real meeting, 5-10 replies prior to this one. Tip of the iceberg, where the "private show" is the place to exchange info. Or where it initiates more and more what many a cam girl invites a member to believe that there is some type of connection or relationship beginning. Irregardless if it is for money or not, it is occurring. Can we cut out the theoretical psycho babble to defend yourselves and your way of conducting business for a moment.

Now why would a member come on a porn site to find a romanian woman to fall in love with as Andra mentioned?

Why would a model encourage a meeting with their clients?

Do you sincerely and honestly believe that it is based just upon your manipulation and fantasy that falsely encourages or hints to some possible meeting? Or is it because it has occurred in the past, continues to occur and will continue based upon actual meetings.

What makes things worse is that models like the one Andra first spoke about, uses both the fantasy of that possible relationship, with the active actual online promotion or lie of something more meaningful.

Then add to that bullshit or lie, or whatever you want to call it, scam, that the model promoted a false relationship because they needed things, anything, monetary assistance etc etc.

Yeah yeah, that's really a wonderful thing to do isn't it?

So noname, another fact and experience, How about a member like Miss Janes, who did not pay for services with a model(she calls him not a member) yet I wonder, was he a guest, or not a paying member but logged onto a site, who then looks for what Andra said regarding her second example.

Add to that, a model now seeking out that member, not for any financial or monetary scam or reasons. Now what do we have there?

Ok, lets use camgirls work ethic, and if used by all models, Miss Jane would never have met her Mr. Perfect. Or lets just treat all members as camgirls says as illogical and nonsensical people.

I forget, I was looking for my future wife on a porn site, to ask me to meet them in reality because I have this preconceived illogical notion that this fantasy was real. Give it a break. I guess it was my fault as well.

Oh sorry it just got personal.

Oh yes, let us not forget Mr. Reuters, who is going out of his way to "enable" a complete stranger but for her being a friend of another model he knows or knew.

Who wishes to "enable" someone less fortunate, for no reason but because he is a kind hearted sensitive caring soul.


Well, now comes my point again. How did he, get past the fluff and circumstance, or how did poor little me get past it, without paying for a private to get to meet some model who works on a porn site? Hmmm.....

Well, Reuters, why choose that one or two women you met on a chat site? Why not start a foundation for the poor and destitute. Let's buy 100's of computers to fill schools, or to pay teachers, or to build schools instead of lusting and drooling over cam model and seek your future gf. Or maybe, let's do something really different, and use a years worth of porn site income to really effect a change for many not just those you choose and pick from.

Nah, I am too self centered and illogical to think about anything other than meeting some women who does not wish to be called a slut on a porn site and then ask, Why?


See without the other individual while at your places of work, this stuff you all bla bla bla about would be moot and not even mentioned anywhere.

Don't bring in what occurs in real life. Because the simple fact is for the most part, that is the only way that many models can make "bank". To exploit the weak.

Enough said here, because when someones says something is red, it really is not red, its whatever color one wishes to perceive, deny or lie that it is not truly red in color.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#48 [url]

Feb 18 11 8:29 PM

QUOTE (TRAINER @ February 18, 2011 02:55 pm)

Enough said here, because when someones says something is red, it really is not red, its whatever color one wishes to perceive, deny or lie that it is not truly red in color.

And there will always be those who can't see it at all.

How each performer operates morally is up to them. Even their definitions of morality will vary widely as with any other job in the entire world. There are going to be performers who financially rape the hell out of members on and off site, and there are going to be performers who have a more ethical approach to the business. That's just our nature as a species. Nothing is going to change that.

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#49 [url]

Feb 18 11 9:04 PM

QUOTE
Can we cut out the theoretical psycho babble to defend yourselves and your way of conducting business for a moment.


I'm not defending cause I didnt take it as an offend either. Is that what it was?

The psycho side is part of the motivation and it's the only way for explaining things. Since you don't have a more valid explanation of "what occurs" on cam and outside of cam work, in life generally regarding specific connections between men n women... it stands.

QUOTE
lack of mutual respect and boundaries drives the models who have no desire to have any sort of connection with a member


Can you explain how the desire of no connection means lake of respect for you? So if you walk on the street and a stranger who doesnt know you is not friendly but neutral with you, will you interpret that as lake of respect? :-) Cause if that's so, you have a problem.

So if you were a woman and while walking, some guys are looking at your ass, would you show your interest about each life and personal details? Say thanks you're not a woman than, because a woman should know to tell "back off", "you can look but doenst mean I want a relationship with you".
Practically I dont think you understand the situation client - provider. In any business, you are specialized on the service you are in. For instance if you are working in an office, you'll be interest about your client need in that specific problem he came for. You woudlnt start to ask " are you gay or straight? are you married/ how do you feel about .... this or that" Or who knows, maybe you have that kind of approach but in my opinion is not normal :-)

QUOTE

Now why would a member come on a porn site to find a romanian woman to fall in love with as Andra mentioned?


Basically because of the emptiness from their lives, being it in only some points of view, expressed in different ways.

Fantasy, yes, because from the huge number of internet users, some lost the contact with reality, and some have never had one. And most of them act the same in real life too. I dont know how much you know about general private life of the guys ( the guy to guy discussion end up with how much they scored and nothing sincere), but as a woman, I've seen in real life that kind too.
When the guy tells me " I know you love me" .. and I say " no, i don't it's only in your mind and you make no sense" , and he answer " no, you are the one who is wrong, you sure love me, just you dont know yet". He's... unrecoverable., at least not without special help. It's not "manipulation" as you call it. the model doesnt even exist, it's just in background for their own fantasy/world.

Happily those represent less than 5% of the guys who visit me. That's why i said this problem is overrated and that way of earning money for models into this
If you ask me, the date sites are used more for finding sugar daddies and have much more potential for those looking for that, than the videochat sites. And the forums about scams prove it, as there are more scams on date/relationship networks.

QUOTE
Yeah yeah, that's really a wonderful thing to do isn't it?


You put too much subjectivity. For some is wonderful, yes, for others is awful, for others... it is what it is, for others is nothing from the point of the worst things that happen in this world (killing, human traffic, children dieing) So it is as wonderful or as terrible as we each see it.

QUOTE
lets just treat all members as camgirls says as illogical and nonsensical people.


I havent said that. you keep misinterpreting. especially I havent used the word "all", i was talking about a specific guy type. Are you really reading, or what? cause sometimes you seem like "fantasy" about what you think I said, just to fit your argues/need of blame/ etc.

QUOTE
how did poor little me get past it, without paying for a private to get to meet some model who works on a porn site?


you're making too much a title of glory from not paying for a private. It's nothing wrong to pay for somebody's time when that person is at her work place. If u didnt is not because ure morality or something, maybe u didnt have enough for a long good show.

Contrary, people who respect their own time, they prefer to pay for a private show, have all the attention of the model, then close the chat and go on with their lives, instead of obsessively browsing chatrooms and look after what the model X or Y does, how she does, call her names if she doesnt fit to your standards etc.

And even you were looking for your wife on the porn site, it wasnt a happy ending story, was it? That means you might have interpret wrong the situation.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#50 [url]

Feb 18 11 10:48 PM

QUOTE
Basically because of the emptiness from their lives, being it in only some points of view, expressed in different ways.

I think it is bcs they see us as whores and bcs others met and for them it means we are all the same

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#51 [url]

Feb 19 11 12:02 AM

This is not always true:

QUOTE
I think it is bcs they see us as whores and bcs others met and for them it means we are all the same


but this is almost always true, at some time or all the times:
QUOTE
Basically because of the emptiness from their lives, being it in only some points of view, expressed in different ways.

It was, and is from time to time, true for me.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#52 [url]

Feb 19 11 12:05 AM

there are men who think all the women are whores. I gave the example with my experience because I was far from the "being a model/sex worker" type, and still that wasn't a boundary for some man to want to try to treat me like one.

My point is that the attitude of some men regarding women has been formed before even discover the videochat sites. Of course, some do have misconceptions ( and that itself say something about how they have a specific misconception and not another), but for others it's a general way of seeing the sex and relationship, as lifestyle view.

If they dont propose to sex workers, there are the kind who think " it's cheaper to buy a drink than paying a prostitute", unrelated to cam work, just with their minds and their general view. It's a sad, if you as me, to see things that way, but these people exist and some can happen to be cam shows clients too.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#53 [url]

Feb 19 11 1:29 AM

I think that Sex Work is one of those industries where the supply creates its own market demand..

Cam-girls are not "whores" (they wouldn't be camming if they were), but camming does help legitimate the idea that sex work is fun and that hot girls are generally available for purchase by pervs/punters if the "price is right.." Cam-models not only market themselves..but also help to sell the idea of sex commerce as the new foundation for male female relations that should be accepted as normal.

So sex workers are propaganda agents for the industry as well as individual entrepreneurs - which is why "not my pussy - not my business" may not be not an adequate response to this change in professional boundaries. Something is happening here. And that something tends to undermine the compartments that separate one form of sex work from another. - It also serves to generalize the notion that all women's sexual services and bodies are - and should be - potentially available for sale - at the appropriate market price. This is called the "fair exchange of values" - which we are told we should accept as legitimate as long as neither party is coerced in the transaction .

I agree that 's a sad way to see things.. But "it be's that way." It's fundamental to the neo-liberal vision of "market freedom" and increasingly is the '"new normal" broadly accepted in the popular culture. And as usual, MFC is leading the way - followed now by SM and PF.. And AW too..

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#54 [url]

Feb 19 11 2:15 AM

You know camgirl sometimes you misinterpret things into the way you want to interpret them and not how they are meant.

I will explain so even a 2 year old will comprehend it.

But first to Coolbreeze, so it's in the best interest of people to basically set up their own moral convictions to however they feel and deem are proper for themselves, fuck those who do not meet another persons moral beliefs even if it actually is immoral in an objective sense.

Screw them before they screw you, is that it?

Or would you care to elaborate further because what I gather is that it is better to take advantage of those who no know better, who are morally perverse, and who may have a weakness and propensity to end up on a porn site so their wallets can be emptied by a woman who may be desperate enough to do it. Or to feign some false relationship for the sake of another to get to where they want to be.

Yet you feel sorry for me? Do not feel sorry for me, feel sorry for the ones that perform such acts, feel sorry for those whom created a situation or circumstance that made someone take advantage of another person no matter what state of mind anyone may be in. If I saw that act near me I would step right in and stop it, whereas it seems you would allow it to occur because thats human nature isn't it. To allow another person to do whatever one needs to do to get someplace at the expense of another human being is why so many are greedy, poor and proves the ever increasing disparity between the haves and haves not. You will never get me to agree to the lesser of two evils, it is morally wrong.


Now for you camgirl:

QUOTE
I'm not defending cause I didnt take it as an offend either. Is that what it was?


I said that because you and other models are annoyed by the people who come into your chatrooms expecting exactly what Andra brings up here. Not me, I know better. I allowed some twisted woman who is a camgirl to enter my life at the chance that she thought she met someone who was different than most of the members who enter chat rooms. Yet, for all it is worth, she is a hypocrite and a coward. And I might add, a liar, and has become quite good at hooking a member into some type of relationship because she actually is seeking Mr. Right. I wish her lots of luck there with that.(Yeah, that was personal)She can go f herself,lol.

QUOTE
The psycho side is part of the motivation and it's the only way for explaining things. Since you don't have a more valid explanation of "what occurs" on cam and outside of cam work, in life generally regarding specific connections between men n women... it stands.



It stands? My valid explanation is because these members are hooked by the lure of a woman saying yes yes yes, your so great baby. I love you. You are great bla bla bla bla, in order to hook that pure member into returning. Except for you, because you do not respect them as people, or individuals because they are there for whatever reasons or purposes. When they enter your chat, they are not a human being they are a dollar sign to you first and foremost. On cam, I have been associated with many different cam models from many different countries, and I see what I just described often. The sincere genuine concern for a member, when all it is,is to say yes to the paying member, and placate that member to enjoy themselves and have a great time, and feel good about themselves ,so they can return back and pay again and again. In reality, you never pay for friendship nor love. It is intimate and real, and was not created or nurtured on a porn site where fantasy and masturbation is king second only to earning. Comparing the cam world to the real world is invalid because our dear moderator coolbreeze states that is the nature of the beast. So do not compare apples with oranges.

But of course, it is that manipulative, exploitive opportunistic teachings that many models use to mix and combine the false reality with the fantasy. I said it many times before and I say it again, I know what is done by models to get that guy into a private and keep them there. You and Andra just don't want to join that club or type of category, all the power to you both. I say suck the members dry these days. They should not be there in the first place if they are actually a decent normal person. (Oh look Coolbreeze we agree on something).

Now pay close attention here camgirl:


QUOTE

lack of mutual respect and boundaries drives the models who have no desire to have any sort of connection with a member


Can you explain how the desire of no connection means lake of respect for you? So if you walk on the street and a stranger who doesnt know you is not friendly but neutral with you, will you interpret that as lake of respect? :-) Cause if that's so, you have a problem.


I was not talking about how I feel, I was quoting other models who wrote that. Not me. I fully comprehend what those models were saying.It is exactly what you and Andra are wishing to avoid, when you want mutual respect of your boundaries and from many other models,who think the same. You are there for the job to make money not to be someones gf or future wives or fuck buddies.

When I view a woman I do not objectify them anywhere. In fact I brought that very subject up to a friend this afternoon, and asked him "When you see a woman anywhere in public how do you view them?"


Why I asked that of him, is because when he saw this woman in a parking garage, he objectified her, then said mmmm mmmm thick. He immediately disregarded her and all she is, and viewed her as an object of desire and a piece of meat and something he would want to bed. Irregardless that she had a baby in the car with her, or that she had any other important part of her being, a mind, a husband, or any other facet of what makes her a person, but just for the fact that she was someone he would want to fuck.

Well in your job, that is the premise and purpose, to lure a member into your private to simulate and stimulate some fantasy and objectification that you are desireable to fuck. Nothing more and nothing less. Same for a stripper and same for a prostitute. The only difference in your job is you play it safer and virtually.

Unless, it is what Andra and you seem to abhor. Which is why do men come into your chat rooms and disrespect your rooms and rules seemingly to believe and want and even succeed to meet and actually fuck a woman that works as a camgirl or become something more than your initial purposes you are there for.

If I am correct in my simple description for the majority of the members that enter these websites and your chat rooms then you should stop telling me that I can not distinguish between fantasy and reality and what it is to actually respect someone and treat them equally and not as an object. But then that is your job duties. To be an object for a member to pay you to do whatever they dream about.


QUOTE
Practically I dont think you understand the situation client - provider. In any business, you are specialized on the service you are in. For instance if you are working in an office, you'll be interest about your client need in that specific problem he came for. You woudlnt start to ask " are you gay or straight? are you married/ how do you feel about .... this or that" Or who knows, maybe you have that kind of approach but in my opinion is not normal :-)


I am not normal? I just described what your job duties entails. You are making this personal, please do not go there. I fully comprehend what it is to be a sex worker. You define it so well.

And of course I would not ask those question in an office because that is a form of sexual harassment and inequality in that environment,and is subject to legal action. Again you are comparing apples to oranges, so if you want some sort of respect where you work stop using the above as a comparison to the real world. If you really want to make it personal I will, because I watched you perform your job.



QUOTE
Basically because of the emptiness from their lives, being it in only some points of view, expressed in different ways.


Fantasy, yes, because from the huge number of internet users, some lost the contact with reality, and some have never had one. And most of them act the same in real life too. I dont know how much you know about general private life of the guys ( the guy to guy discussion end up with how much they scored and nothing sincere), but as a woman, I've seen in real life that kind too.
When the guy tells me " I know you love me" .. and I say " no, i don't it's only in your mind and you make no sense" , and he answer " no, you are the one who is wrong, you sure love me, just you dont know yet". He's... unrecoverable., at least not without special help. It's not "manipulation" as you call it. the model doesnt even exist, it's just in background for their own fantasy/world.


You think too much young lady. Isn't what you described above kind of abnormal and something that needs more attention and scrutiny. Oh I digress and these are the guys that you also make bank on, isn't it. Once again you are describing how sad and demented some people are that enter into your world. Isn't that something? And there you are in the middle of it. Yet, let them be, let them enter deeper into their own delusional fantasy at your work, because it creates billions upon billions of dollars. So you can live a decent so called normal life.


Please there is nothing new you can tell me when it comes to the member/model interactions. You make money off of them, so you condone it. I was there, and tried to avoid what you described above because I actually viewed you and others as people and not objects, but alas, like Andra, I have a different moral standard than most people. I won't play some fantasy or lust after a woman because they are objectifying themselves to make a living. I understand why it is done, but I do not have to agree with it or condone it. My good friend who is a model knows that all too well about that point about me. And guess what, we are respectful and care alot about each other. I would say that is quite a normal relationship, between a man and a woman. Or you are going to refute that? I suppose I should be trying to get into her coochie first instead of treating her as an equal and in a respectful way.

QUOTE
You put too much subjectivity. For some is wonderful, yes, for others is awful, for others... it is what it is, for others is nothing from the point of the worst things that happen in this world (killing, human traffic, children dieing) So it is as wonderful or as terrible as we each see it.


I put too much subjectivity? I believe you do, especially when you reply to me and my unbiased views of what I have observed going on. It is what it is. Yep it certainly is that. Don't play that subjective/objective game with me. I have two friendships with two working models now, neither of them have anything to do with your work. I could care less that you make tons of money or enjoy it. I worry more about what is real but yet reality is entering your fantasy job all too often these days. The two women I am friends with, hate these type of members and it causes them hardship and stress. And that is why Andra has started this topic. I can separate reality from fantasy very well, perhaps


you can't. She is stating that it occurs, and I am as well, yet you argue and try to figure out how to deny it for the most part. And then make it a personal thing about me.

Many meetings are not even based upon financial exchanges. Case in point, Miss Jane's relationship. She mentioned she did not consider him a member. To me that would indicate he never paid for her services in her work environment. (Sorry MJ, for quoting or referencing you over and over).

Wait a second, I tried to do exactly what he did with a woman I thought would be mature enough to look past the greed and bullshit and fantasy that is your work. Sorry I used another personal reference here again. I will do it again, until you stop assuming things.

QUOTE
Happily those represent less than 5% of the guys who visit me. That's why i said this problem is overrated and that way of earning money for models into this


Duh, that is because you either kick their asses out of your room,or tell them to fuck off in a sarcastic holier than thou way or treat them with such disdain that borders on hatred of others. How is it overrated when Andra does not even work on MFC. Is that the only reference you believe I am using here to state my opposing facts for you?

I seen it on PF, On *keepshows*, on F4F, on DS, on AW, it is everywhere, except in your room, because you do not tolerate it. The other 95 % of the others seeking what you say is your 5% are elsewhere, they are just not in your chat or have not entered into it yet. Where are the other 95% you do not see, in my imagination I suppose.


QUOTE
You put too much subjectivity. For some is wonderful, yes, for others is awful, for others... it is what it is, for others is nothing from the point of the worst things that happen in this world (killing, human traffic, children dieing) So it is as wonderful or as terrible as we each see it.


That is exactly correct except you are being more subjective than I am. Why don't we tackle those issues that you describe instead of jerking off in your chat room while looking for their next girlfriend. Lets take that money spent on you, for one month and spread it out to all the trafficked women, children dying, families of lost ones etc etc) and i will do the same, so we can help those victims. Or we can get just a few of your big spenders to do something more noble.

Sorry was I being too objective and real there?

QUOTE
I havent said that. you keep misinterpreting. especially I havent used the word "all", i was talking about a specific guy type. Are you really reading, or what? cause sometimes you seem like "fantasy" about what you think I said, just to fit your argues/need of blame/ etc.



Pardon me, that is how you appear to sound.


QUOTE
you're making too much a title of glory from not paying for a private. It's nothing wrong to pay for somebody's time when that person is at her work place. If u didnt is not because ure morality or something, maybe u didnt have enough for a long good show.


Where did you come up with that opinion of me. See, that particular model did not want me to go private, plus I stopped a long time before she was some object of desire at her new job, but yeah I have gone private longer than many have on average before I ever met her. I treated her as she wished. Don't make this personal. You are incorrect. You are assuming too much. Please keep your assumptions to yourself. Let's just say I was not a member in her chat room. She wanted it that way. And if you enter her chat nowadays she is calling everyone a cheap ass. She uses the lure of some kind of fake friendship and/or relationship to keep members returning. She is a product of the studios instruction manuals.

She proved what a fake she was and I told her to go f off. Her cowardly acts, and her inability to have a normal relationship with a men is her problem and something I could not deal with when I had my own problems that she dismissed and made her be self centered and selfish.

Don't you ever assume anything about me. The world does not revolve around you nor I.


QUOTE
Contrary, people who respect their own time, they prefer to pay for a private show, have all the attention of the model, then close the chat and go on with their lives, instead of obsessively browsing chatrooms and look after what the model X or Y does, how she does, call her names if she doesnt fit to your standards etc.

And even you were looking for your wife on the porn site, it wasnt a happy ending story, was it? That means you might have interpret wrong the situation.


Yeah well then we should abolish CGN because without the research or critical discussions and all the disdain and contempt towards members and models alike, it would not exist. You are X and I am Y. My standards are of no concern to you. I have been in this just as long as you have miss, except I learned what it is about and perhaps helped others while others could care less. If I see anyone out to screw over another person anywhere, whether it is online, or on the street where I live, I will speak up and prevent it.

That last sentence says a lot about how you read but do not understand. I was there stopping members from mistreating you gals. I was not looking for my wife. But a model used what Andra has repeated twice in her thread occur to me. I stopped her from going any further, because I saw she was just a liar, a greedy whoa is me person, who is not mature enough to have a normal relationship.

So please if I offend you now, I tell you quite bluntly to stop bringing in your own interpretations when it comes to my personal experiences. One member that was a good friend of mine, was a member on this forum. He realized how everyone plays the game to make "bank" and left. Good for him. If he was here, I am sure he would back me up and tell it like it is, not like you think you want it to be in your eyes or how you are assuming me to be. Now who the fuck made this personal and a flame war now?.

With all the research I passed on to Uncle and shared on here, and you have to make it personal camgirl. You believe what you want, and I will return here, and post example after example from different sources. Perhaps I will use a forum that you find noteworthy and helpful, and post chats here, as an example of how both men and women treat each other in reality, at strip clubs, and on cams sites.

Now honestly who is more objective here now?


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#55 [url]

Feb 19 11 2:34 AM

Wow Trainer.. Your last post borders on overkill..
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#56 [url]

Feb 19 11 2:44 AM

Trainer, I wasn't condoning anything. You've got yourself in such a lather that you can't even see straight. You're lashing out and attempting to put words in the mouths of other members. You being "unbiased" is how you really see yourself. I believe that. And until you recognize that you're not, you'll go around in circles like this forever. Look at the years you've spent here, and still you're stuck in the same rutt.

I said, that performers will operate in this industry with a widely varying degree of "morality". Some will take great advantage of the weakness of the men who visit them, and encourage them to become weaker. Others will operate more "ethically" and not promote the offsite meets and will actually tell a member when they're stepping over lines (or they will attempt to tell them). Basically I'm saying that there are good people, and there are bad people in this world. This is a FACT.

Because of the type of work videochat is, there is a lot more room for the "bad" people to take advantage than in many other professions. And they DO. While still other's choose not to take advantage to such a degree.

This is a fact of life. And it's nothing that we can change because it gets to the root of human nature. Of what some would call "good and evil". I'm not promoting anything, yet you continually put me in that box. Because you really see me that way and try to make my words fit your opinion. The misunderstandings here are generally yours amigo. And for as many people that tell you this, you'll tell them just as many times, "No!" They are misunderstanding YOU.

What I said is let's accept what IS. And carry on from there. But you'll only hear what you want to hear. Which is representative of a gazillion members on sites making statements exactly like those Andra outlined. Yes, some performers make it worse for the others. Some make it better. This is the reality.

Breeze

~ ~ AFFINITY ~ ~

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#58 [url]

Feb 19 11 3:07 AM

I'm going to try to make things better, with a little statement of observation and clarification. But given the heat, I'll probably just make things worse.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#59 [url]

Feb 19 11 4:34 AM

Were you referring to this Mark?
A law that has come under scrutinty in the new age.

caveat emptor


[Latin, Let the buyer beware.] A warning that notifies a buyer that the goods he or she is buying are "as is," or subject to all defects.

When a sale is subject to this warning the purchaser assumes the risk that the product might be either defective or unsuitable to his or her needs.

This rule is not designed to shield sellers who engage in Fraud or bad faith dealing by making false or misleading representations about the quality or condition of a particular product. It merely summarizes the concept that a purchaser must examine, judge, and test a product considered for purchase himself or herself.

The modern trend in laws protecting consumers, however, has minimized the importance of this rule. Although the buyer is still required to make a reasonable inspection of goods upon purchase, increased responsibilities have been placed upon the seller, and the doctrine of caveat venditor (Latin for "let the seller beware") has become more prevalent. Generally, there is a legal presumption that a seller makes certain warranties unless the buyer and the seller agree otherwise. One such Warranty is the Implied Warranty of merchantability. If a person buys soap, for example, there is an implied warranty that it will clean; if a person buys skis, there is an implied warranty that they will be safe to use on the slopes.

A seller who is in the business of regularly selling a particular type of goods has still greater responsibilities in dealing with an average customer. A person purchasing antiques from an antique dealer, or jewelry from a jeweler, is justified in his or her reliance on the expertise of the seller.

If both the buyer and the seller are negotiating from equal bargaining positions, however, the doctrine of caveat emptor would apply.
Cross-references

Consumer Protection; Sales Law.
West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

caveat emptor (kah-vee-ott emptor) Latin for "let the buyer beware." The basic premise that the buyer buys at his/her own risk and therefore should examine and test a product himself/herself for obvious defects and imperfections. Caveat emptor still applies even if the purchase is "as is" or when a defect is obvious upon reasonable inspection before purchase. Since implied warranties (assumed quality of goods) and consumer protections have come upon the legal landscape, the seller is held to a higher standard of disclosure than "buyer beware" and has responsibility for defects which could not be noted by casual inspection (particularly since modern devices cannot be tested except by use, and so many products are pre-packaged). (See: consumer protection laws)
Copyright 1981-2005 by Gerald N. Hill and Kathleen T. Hill. All Right reserved.
caveat emptor noun at one's own risk, purchase without a guaranty, purchase without a warranty, purrhased at one's risk, unassured purchase, unendorsed purchase, unguaranteed purchase, unwarranted purchase

Burton's Legal Thesaurus, 4E. Copyright 2007 by William C. Burton. Used with permission of The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

CAVEAT EMPTOR. Let the purchaser take heed; that is, let him see to it, that the title he is buying is good. This is a rule of the common law, applicable to the sale and purchase of lands and other real estate. If the purchaser pay the consideration money, he cannot, as a general rule, recover it back after the deed has been executed; except in cases of fraud, or by force of some covenant in the deed which has been broken. The purchaser,if he fears a defect of title, has it in his power to protect himself by proper covenants, and if he fails to do so, the law provides for him no remedy. Cro. Jac. 197; 1 Salk. 211 Doug. 630, 654; 1 Serg. & R. 52, 53, 445. This rule is discussed with ability in Rawle on Covenants for Title, p. 458, et seq. c. 13, and the leading authorities collected. See also 2 Kent, Com. Lect. 39, p. 478; 2 Bl. Com. 451; 1 Stor, Eq. Sec. 212 6 Ves. 678; 10 Ves. 505; 3 Cranch, 270; 2 Day, R. 128; Sugd. Vend. 221 1 Bouv. Inst. n. 954-5.
2. This rule has been severely assailed, as being the instrument of falsehood and fraud; but it is too well established to be disregarded. Coop., Just. 611, n. See 8 Watts, 308, 309.

Caveat emptor. Let the purchaser beware.





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#60 [url]

Feb 19 11 5:13 AM

Yes, it is the responsibility of the member to do research. If the member enters the room with closed eyes, he deserves what he gets.

I have wasted time, money and been 'hurt' in performers' rooms.

Even after I had read many, many posts here about the inner workings of the industry; I still went back and tried to 'beat the system.'

I basically have to adopt the belief that everything a performer says in their room is a lie: prompting me to tip or take her private.

I don't see much difference between the performers and used car salesman: both will tell me what I want to hear

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