#81 [url]

Feb 23 11 12:02 PM

NoName.. well said and very much to the point..
You're not the first or the last male member to have seen these kinds of long-term changes in models who did virtual sex work for "too long" - which led to long-term psychological harms to a performers sense of self worth. Read over some of Dean's and Tom78's posts.. but also some of our model members like Gabby, Giggles and The Partisan.

True it's not everybody. Read Fetish or model members like Delfina who would tell them to stop whining and just suck it up, on the principle that "What does not kill me, makes me stronger.". But it certainly this sense of being trapped in an industrial "rat race" describes the feelings of many. And "When the last drop of humanity has been squeezed out of us by this job" [Senior Romanian Studio Model/ Admin), the relatively high material rewards are not enough to compensate for their diminished sense of self-worth and their loss of trust in people. Of course, this dispair can become even worse when the money begins to dry-up, or the model intimate shows have been posted on the Internet one too many times.

I agree with CG that we should ask whether some of these models didn't bring these attitudes with them to the Job because of their prior internalization of gender bias and discrimination in their societies. And that can be as true of the US as it is of Brazil or Eastern Europe.

I also agree that this ought to be a separate thread - even if we are re-visiting something that has been discussed many times before. This thread should keep its orginal focus which is on the members attitudes..not the impact of those member attitudes on the psychological well being of the models who serve their emotional and sexual needs.

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#82 [url]

Feb 23 11 12:11 PM


I like to think the side of humanity nobody and nothing can take it away from a person. If it can be taken, it means the humanity is only a moment mood and not a stable one, part of that persons character. From this point of view there are people more inclined to compromises than others, on different levels.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#83 [url]

Feb 23 11 5:42 PM

UL, I don't know how to break this off into a separate thread and at the same time respond to a poster within the thread. (I'm not much of a poster of forums). But if there is a way of branching this off, please do.

CAMGIRL

QUOTE
your intentions are good, but are there any practical solutions besides the moral support?

Exactly, that is the dilemma. I didn't speak of my intentions, just making the observation. Your question was exactly the next logical observation I was to make.
Without a practical solution, two things. One, for the performer, unless there is some other future that one can see with some degree of reality, it is harder to keep the "reality" of the present at bay. Two, I think this same applies to members with 'good intentions', and no matter how much 'moral support' one might provide, it ultimately can't make the kind of difference that changes the circumstance. I think that this is the source of frustration and focusing of tangents for guests that aren't consumers.

CAMGIRL
QUOTE
I like to think the side of humanity nobody and nothing can take it away from a person. If it can be taken, it means the humanity is only a moment mood and not a stable one, part of that persons character. From this point of view there are people more inclined to compromises than others, on different levels.

Yes I agree, is simply true. And I have been continuously amazed and blown away by the kind of character from which that strength generates from. Which goes back to my original reply to Trainer having to do with a performer’s ability to distance oneself from the psychological and emotional wear and tear of the work and how one can treat the aspects of it as real or just stuff on a screen and a funny environment to work. As my friend and I described as "healthy distancing". But I think it goes further for those 70%, that there must be the idea of a different future than that work, to be able to keep that distance. And I'm not talking about whiners, but about those who put their focus on applying themselves and not showing their displeasure in their circumstance, but those in quiet moments of reflection or sharing put to voice their own concerns of how long they can maintain being unaffected by what they see and need to project to make the job work. I think the background is indisputable, that to most casual observers or participants see the there are environmental forces at work that can have degrees of toxic effect.

BTW, to me you are in the 20%, and I am always an admirer of anyone who is, regardless of their chosen profession. People that are naturals and bring all their brains and enthusiasm into what they do, and are way bigger than whatever they are doing, by any messure they are cool!

I think UL used the right word, trapped. For anyone in any profession, it's not about loving the job or not. It's about the degree of control one has over their own fate, life, and work that has an affect on one's health and satisfaction. In some ways cam work can be not as much about "porn", as a fishbowl in which the participants are observing the possible partial deteriorasation of their own and others lives.

BTW as an aside, I glad it is clear I am not moralizing or judging in any way, in these statements of my observations. If I wanted to judge anyone, I've got enough to judge myself about, lol.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#84 [url]

Feb 23 11 5:57 PM

QUOTE
It's about the degree of control one has over their own fate, life, and work that has an affect on one's health and satisfaction.


that's correct. Maybe that's why, in comparison ( and everything in this world function on comparisons), a 10 hours/day job with a boss yelling, for 300$/month, means much less level of control for the employee than most of the adult work, being it even for the amount of hours/day spent less for work and more for themselves, not mentioning the freedom the extra money can give. I mean between working 4 hours/day and earning 3000$/month and working 10 hours/day for 300$, for me it would be suicide to choose the second.

What I observed was that indeed, some people can be let themselves "trapped" into these situations, worst than cam work, if you ask me, just because "many others so this". So working 10 hours/day for 300$ it becomes actually normal and not seen as a trap, because of the most of the society's opinion, and that opinion is very important for them. And it's "normal". Contrary, and adult work, is not something society accepts, so it can be seen as "sin" or for "outcast" people - and can be painful to handle with that opinion, as the natural way is to find appreciation and approve from it.

I think cam work, besides the privacy assumed risk, allows you to have just as much control as you allowed yourself to have. For instance a model who tends to do compromises ( generally, in her life), will do all the members ask even she's not OK with that, and money doesnt even worth in those cases. If she becomes stronger, and learn from that and say "look.. i feel that way if I do this.. because a member insisted", it's like Pavlov instinct - she wont do it after a while, and she will tend to do less compromises in her real life too. That's why i agree with Delfina when she said "what doesnt destroy us make us stronger". Of course, every person can reach that sooner or later (some never), but the sooner = the better.

And I think becoming stronger it can be done by only doing what u like, generally. Contrary, figure how to handle some situations you don't like. Just like most of the people who done something big in their life, being it a change of status and having more freedom, and done it by work and not by luck, they made some sacrifices.
I cant describe the feeling once you start being able to do that. It's more than a better situation for the work, but a valuable win for yourself.

Of course, this is my experience, I know every model perceives differently. But I'm also not an alien

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#85 [url]

Feb 23 11 6:20 PM

QUOTE
That's why i agree with Delfina when she said "what doesnt destroy us make us stronger". Of course, every person can reach that sooner or later (some never), but the sooner = the better.

And I think becoming stronger it can be done by only doing what u like, generally. Contrary, figure how to handle some situations you don't like. I cant describe the feeling once you start being able to do that. It's more than a better situation for the work, but a valuable win for yourself.


Yes I can relate too. I have not always "loved my job", but when I have overcome or outsmarted it, without compromising my values, it is a great feeling. It is interesting your examples and I agree there are aspects that can be empowering in any situation.


"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#86 [url]

Feb 23 11 7:30 PM

I read the latest replies here and I don't disagree with any of it.

Self preservation in this business takes many different paths and direction.

QUOTE
70% have found this work as a compromise choice when there are few or no options to make a living.


That is a lot of people percentage wise. Basically you are saying that all these people are masking or internalizing and maybe subconsciously changing how they act when dealing with things that may cause stress, go against their principles, or performing things and actions they may personally never would do under "normal" or under different circumstances.

The issue here is two fold.

On one hand we are discussing how a model deals and handles members that seek real time meetings and the other hand is why members are actually seeking the real time meetings.

Your views and points are valid but the questions still is there, with the nagging problem.

Now to break it down further:

1) How do models deal with a member seeking extracurricular activities?

Well one can:

a) The use of sarcasm combined with no,no,no's to get the point across to the member, that nope, the model is not there for meeting anyone.

Same can be seen as with dealing with freeloaders and beggars.

b)Simple banning the member can be effective if they have been warned.

c) A model can play along to increase their earnings.

This is where the root cause and increases of the queries to ask for the meeting are created.

d)Actually genuinely be interested in a real time meeting for various reasons(Model is acttracted to the member and does want more involvement, or is scamming, feigning interest to earn more as well)

If you actually look at yourself,Noname, as well as most members here who are not models, one realizes that them and we are also part of the cause.

But of course, logically, without a models consent, no member would ever have the opportunity to get more intimate.

Above is some of the actions that can be done to stop it, or to continue creating an atmosphere of the attempts of members to try to hook up with any model for various reasons.

Sorry to use my experiences, but all of the attempts and successes to become more intimate within the models work environment to have a more personal relationship was initiated by the models.(Asking for messenger id's, asking for pics, phone numbers, emial addresses).

In the evolving interactive play and work of camming, it is now more acceptable, as for example, using MFC as one, where PM's, cam2cam, and of course private time, creates more intimacy, hence more possibilities for real meeting and/or personal involvements.

As to why a member thinks, believes, or attempts to meet a model,in real life, at the models place of business, could be caused and created by some of the posted reasons earlier in this thread.

There are members, who love to be that playboy and add a notch to their belt.

There are those who never even thought of attempting it, but hanging out in an evironment or "community" where they see others have succeeded would give them the impetus to try it for themselves.

Of course it is human nature for men and women to be attracted to each other, especially when both parties are exposing themselves for sexual entertainment.

But I believe the more personal and intimate the interactions are becoming and evolving with the social networking aspect of it, that it will never stop and I suggest it will only increase.

The question is how does a model stop it, or how do members "learn" a new skillset(pavlov experiment,i.e) to stop it from becoming all too common?

Well that is up to the models in my view, and also up to the websites promotions etc to stop extending some impressions upon the members that anything goes.

It always comes back to "you are responsible for your actions, and your actions may have unwanted consequences".

In a way there is no naivity of a member, because they know well enough that they have a chance or opportunity too "get lucky". And the reasons are because of the raffle contests, the past meetings that have occurred(successful or not), and the lack of professional distances between individuals.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#87 [url]

Feb 23 11 8:04 PM

QUOTE
because they know well enough that they have a chance or opportunity too "get lucky"


opportunity to "get lucky" or to "get scammed" ? especially if the raffle isnt real ( I mean, really, how can it be proved is real, and has no legal base like the lottery. It's just the word of the model here). This is the question.

Past experiences - Ive been in touch with how media market works, very close actually and all the TV stars have made up stories for advertising, marketing and increasing earnings purpose. I cant give examples because the details are from the inside, but many are no different than the cam models - members "experiences". And yes, people believe them.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#88 [url]

Feb 23 11 9:08 PM

Well if the opportunity exists for both things to occur(scam or meeting), the scam part would result in lost earnings and even more problems from disgruntled customers.

If you mean a scam as to a fake genuine concern for a member that is a lie in order to get into a relationship then that would create many other problems to say the least.
If you are referring to the scam of the raffle the same can hold true.Niether results in any positive results.

If the raffles are a means to earn big bucks initially I am sure word would spread throughout the website to the customers leading to unpleasant "dramas" to break out.

I know of models who have left specific websites in order to be rid of annoying members who they may have made the mistake getting too close with a member or members . But then most informed members know of many other sites where they can find that model again, perhaps under a new alias.

I can understand your example of advertising and marketing but what Andra brought up here does not have a connection in her case to what you describe, and I believe in other similar cases with other people.

Perhaps what you conclude with saying "people will believe in anything" says much about the nature of the beast and the environments the beast plays in.

Oh btw... Simply asking the winners of these raffles would be proof enough to find the truth or not. Then again we have learned of contests and raffles held by a specific studio that was discussed on this forum.

If you are implying that all these raffles are lies, then should the naive member be forewarned of this. Would that lead to word of this spreading diminish the work as a whole and no less that the websites and/or studios who condone such things.

I also believe some of these real relationships blossom out of the "white knight" instincts as well by members towards some models.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#89 [url]

Feb 23 11 10:01 PM

QUOTE
Oh btw... Simply asking the winners of these raffles would be proof enough to find the truth or not.



I don't think that's enough. there are many models who have member accounts too, not mentioning studio owners acting like members in order to increase the popularity of their models. And some are acting very well, after all.. it's about their earnings too.

I dont think it's so unusual considering some guys make member accounts even for using fake credit cards on private with girls, to fool the website, and the girls return them a share. While lies cost nothing, no need advanced computer skills for that and not so much legal implications either.

If a model makes bank from raffle, I really dont think is a big deal for her to find a guy pretending he's the winner, especially if he is payed for that. I think the "winner" is decided BEFORE the raffle.

Contrary, I think it's really foolish for a model to make a real raffle.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#90 [url]

Feb 23 11 11:43 PM

Ok, fair enough camgirl.

If I follow what you wrote in your past two replies finding another reasoning behind the raffles, that you continually are proposing that there is quite a bit of fibbing, lying and other things occurring to make "bank".

For example:

QUOTE
there are many models who have member accounts too, not mentioning studio owners acting like members in order to increase the popularity of their models. And some are acting very well, after all.. it's about their earnings too.


and:

QUOTE
I dont think it's so unusual considering some guys make member accounts even for using fake credit cards on private with girls, to fool the website, and the girls return them a share. While lies cost nothing, no need advanced computer skills for that and not so much legal implications either.


So unusual....fake ...fool....lies..



QUOTE
f a model makes bank from raffle, I really dont think is a big deal for her to find a guy pretending he's the winner, especially if he is payed for that. I think the "winner" is decided BEFORE the raffle.

Contrary, I think it's really foolish for a model to make a real raffle.


Well from what you are saying here, that nothing is true, probably is false and lies.

Well isn't this something about the work as you would put it.

So then is it possible that it is possible that things are not on the up and up?

Well based upon this evidence you are providing I think other members who are enjoying the fruits of their own illusions or delusions had better wise up.

I learned what you are writing about a long long time ago. Have things changed?

Perhaps, some recent members here(non models) should heed camgirls advice and words.

But I digress.

Thank you camgirl.

I wonder why one model wrote elsewhere on the forum here that there is honesty and truth in this business as a whole. I remember another model saying it was honorable. I apologize for being cynical or brash, but to me something is not kosher.

I find your words so intriguing yet so fascinating, yet something that tells so much about things, that when it comes to money, anything goes.

Disclaimer: I am not saying everyone lies or fakes things, but come on people.

p.s- Didn't take me long to find this as just an example lol.

Must be another scam then:


Guest65834: so kxxxxx may i be your mfc bf??
Guest54431: Would you like a nice american boy?
You have joined Kxxxxxx chat as Guest68026.
Topic: 700 tks to get me naked/ ask before pvt

Guest51983: you looks really hot
Kxxxxx: next month guest
M0zil: show ass
Kxxxxx: i will do raffles

Guest65834: ok
M0zil: please as
Kxxxx: for MFC bf

That is why and who is creating it as just an example of following other people leads.



camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#91 [url]

Feb 24 11 12:39 AM

QUOTE
Well isn't this something about the work as you would put it.


I think it's more about people than about work.

As for the guys lied they could get an one night fuck for 500 tk ( or however the raffle ticket is) , cheaper than a hooker in their place or a dinner with an woman... even I would never get into that, they deserve it. I know it sounds mean, but that's it. :-)

Guys who hope for that are no better than models/studio owners who lie.

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#92 [url]

Feb 24 11 7:08 AM

QUOTE
That is a lot of people percentage wise. Basically you are saying that all these people are masking or internalizing and maybe subconsciously changing how they act when dealing with things that may cause stress, go against their principles, or performing things and actions they may personally never would do under "normal" or under different circumstances.


No, I am saying that either they are changing or resisting change, changes that may come from being in the environment. We are products of our character certainly, but the environment does have force to influence and modify individuals.


QUOTE
If you actually look at yourself,Noname, as well as most members here who are not models, one realizes that them and we are also part of the cause.

But of course, logically, without a models consent, no member would ever have the opportunity to get more intimate.


I would never had ended up coming to this site in the first place, if I wasn't looking at myself and trying to understand me. But also to get some perspective about the intimate relationship that developed out of an accidental occurance of mutual recognition and insight between my friend and I. For us it was quite an accident and unexpected, and something neither of us was looking for. But that fact still didn't stop me from questoning everything.

I concur that your observations are valid, on this whole subject. I'm just not the best contributor for ideas of fixing bigger issues. I'm glad, from a humanity point of view, that others are. At this period of my life. I'm having enough work just trying to figure out how to make my own life work, as I would want it.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#93 [url]

Feb 24 11 12:06 PM

So, I've been reading this thread with interest because I'm come to be very close with a number of my clients online. I've also experienced the full spectrum of clients: men who just want to get off, men who mistake fantasy for reality, men who are abusive, passive-aggressive, manipulative, and/or destructive, but also men who are genuinely interesting, outrageously hot, kind, hilarious, men who've introduced me to new ways of thinking (and masturbating), and men who've been genuinely inspiring. I'm also a little reluctant to toss my voice into this mix because I'm new to this board and because there's some sort of backstory here I'm not familiar with. So take this with a grain of salt - just a few general thoughts:

I'm reading these as generalizations, and maybe these are references to specific models, but if these are generalizations, then it's important to factor in what kind of camming we're talking about, because it varies pretty dramatically. The site, the social dynamic it engenders, the primary means of generating income, the kind of client the site attracts all shape the overall experience. It look like you're primarily focusing on MFC, unless I'm mistaken, but it's important to recognize that MFC is very much a "highest bidder" environment. That's going to create a very specific relationship between the model and the clients. Working for tips and auctions is very different from earning all of your income from time spent one-on-one.

We do what we do to make money, but there are different approaches to making that money, different philosophies and circumstances and dynamics, let alone ethics. When women offer to meet clients, you need to consider that context. Is she a strong public presence who depends on tips? Does she offer increased intimacy (access, etc.) for pay? That's usually the logic behind public raffles for meetings - they're selling access. I'd assume anyone who pays for that access (and maybe that includes sex) recognizes this, and if they don't, then yes, they're naive. And I assume that any woman who auctions off access knows that she's probably not meeting the love of her life.

I work on a different sort of site, one that does have free chat if I make it available (and I do), but the site is structured to push privates. I use free chat as downtime between privates, a place to socialize before I'm taken behind closed doors again. But since the emphasis is on private time, there's no need to upsell or hustle for tips, let alone auction, which lends itself to a different overall experience and, I'm assuming, a different sort of relationship with clients.

This is where it gets tricky when it comes to naivete: in my experience, there's an implied fantasy that can come with camming, and that fantasy is to take things a step further, to not just undress but to undress within reach. Camming, for me, treads a line that is both sexually satisfying and a tease, because it feels real but it could always feel *more* real if I were there in person. Of course, that varies depending on the client and the chemistry: some just want to jerk off and see a bit of tit, some want to direct the model to do this or that, but many (in my experience) want to share a sexual experience. So they're as interested in my arousal as I am in theirs. When I'm turned on, and when they're turned on, it's tempting to take things further.

But, for many clients, and often for me, that fantasy is limited to the moment. When it's over, they check out, I have a sip of water and get dressed, and I see someone else. I may never see them again, or we might do it again another night. We might do it every night.

And there's obvious safety to keeping things on cam. I don't know them. I don't know what they're like. I don't know if they're psychotic. Hell, I don't even know if they're recording my session to plaster all over the web. And the realities of meeting are complex: they could be weird, possessive, a little mental, wholly dangerous, abusive, or the chemistry could simply be off. So, the fantasy is great: in the moment, I'm definitely wishing I could touch that body, and when they say they wish they could touch me, it's exciting. There's an obvious per-minute transaction, but beneath that, there's something very genuine.

It becomes complex when the desire to meet lingers after the session is over. Maybe they're curious and want to get to know me, maybe I'm curious about them. And maybe over time, we do this little dance of mutual discretion, each reluctant to press the other with personal questions, and slowly get to know one another in the process. Maybe I'm still thinking about that client, but I dismiss those thoughts because they cross a boundary. He wants to me, I want to meet, but I can't let that happen.

Or: Maybe I don't feel the chemistry at all, I have absolutely no interest in meeting that person, but he keeps bringing it up, again and again.

So, imagine you're a camgirl in that situation. The more you private with someone like this, the more intensely they want to meet. You make your money through these privates. You need to continue to make money - it's your livelihood - and you're getting an increasingly dissatisfied client because you won't meet him. You have three options: 1) you can agree to meet at a price, presumably one that will off-set the risk of meeting him and the risk of losing him as a cam client, 2) you can lead the client on with the promise of meeting to prolong the number of privates you get before he gets frustrated and moves on, or 3) you can tell him that there's no chance of meeting, period, and risk losing that client forever.

The most financially beneficial choice is to put forth the promise of meeting with no intention of following through, or to agree to meet at a relatively high price. One is ethically sketchy, the other carries a high level of risk.

And, on the client side, his motivations can vary. Maybe he's just wants to be able to brag he was with so-and-so, and will say anything to do that. Maybe he gets a feeling of power by encouraging a model to cross a line. Maybe he's mental, or a stalker, or he's violent. Maybe he's white-knighting and wants to save a model from her difficult circumstances (and, most likely, can't handle the reality of that). Or maybe he's genuine.

There's potential naivete on both sides. A camgirl might hope a client will try to save her from her circumstances when he's really just looking for an anecdote to tell his friends. Maybe a client will think it's true love when a camgirl is really just trying to keep him as a paying client.

Though I don't meet clients as a general rule, it's a rule I've broken. It wasn't for pay - I didn't want there to be any expectations on either side - and now he's someone I'm very, very close to. I also have a few clients I'm very close to online. We play when we cam, we chat when I'm at my computer but not camming. And I have a few clients I'm very close to when I am camming, and only then. I don't think anyone is naive, but, personally, I do my best to make where I stand very clear. That said, I'm sure I lose a lot of clients and a lot of money that way.

So if someone really needs the money, or if she works for a studio that expects her to make a lot of money, I don't think she can be faulted for doing whatever it takes. And, as it was said earlier, being too open emotionally can take a serious toll on one's well-being, so a camgirl can't be faulted for protecting herself emotionally. Camming is both personal and professional, and that can be a challenging, sometimes dangerous line to tread.

But as I said: take all of this with a grain of salt. I'm new here, and I haven't read all of the threads, so I might be missing some important backstory.

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#94 [url]

Feb 24 11 1:24 PM

Thank you Nocturne for your honesty and your insights into what is "a very complicated situation." What you have written here reminds me very much of what Elizabeth Bernstein has said about the "bounded authenticity" that can develop between escorts and their regulars in her book "Temporarily Yours."
You can find out more by looking here:
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=868

I agree we have been focused too much on MFC lately. Some of our model members work there..but none of our Model Mods do. There's an exchange about whether that focus is appropriate or not between Lookingforwishes and myself that you can find here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...t=0&#entry17649

In any case, Nocturne, this is a great contribution to the discussion and great start for your participation on this board. I am glad that you have jumped into the conversation and look forward to hearing more from you.

UL

P.S. I may separate out the "back-story" from the main thread here and make them into separate topics.

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#95 [url]

Feb 24 11 2:54 PM

Thank you Nocturne and welcome here.

You summed it up quite well.

Although much of the thread is referencing MFC as an example based upon the atmosphere, similar activities do occur on other websites, it just is not as obvious or is more discreet.

It is a fine line that is walked or crossed when both participants agree to cross that professional boundary.

Perhaps the underlying story is what happens when the members "try" too hard or become a nuisance. Or the naivety on both sides contributes to a less than pleasant end result.

As you mentioned mutual consent and mutual attraction also plays a factor into the consent to meet.
I kind of view it as art imitating life or vise versa. It is a risk. While many models do meet clients, many other models do not condone it.

Of those that do not condone it, I seem to feel that those models use their own biases as the reasons why they do not wish to have any personal contact with someone they met in their work environments. Sometimes, for those members, whom may be looked upon with disgust or with disdain or contempt generally, it possibly is a big reason why these models refrain from wanting to know anything personal about those clients.

I have heard and seen models saying, "I would never meet anyone from here".

There are models,also, that their real circumstances, creates the fantasy that perhaps they could meet "Mr. Right" in their work environments. Possibly their way out of poverty, or to have some sort of a better future for themselves.
You add in the method of "love, attraction, genuine interest from the member, while the model needs to earn a living, and it could be viewed as:

Taking her private= proving how much they do love, care, or are attracted to the woman. Some models may use that as a means to make more "bank", while the member is believing things are genuine. A fine line is walked here.

Questions of trust, honesty, and other things then come to the surface. Which then some could ask, are you only interested in me for my money?

Does a person truly need to prove how much they care for a person by paying for it. Well in the context and environment where both met, that is and could be used to manipulate, lay guilt upon and create a warped sense of the relationship.

I thank you for your honest answers and you comments here.

A very fine line is crossed here at times, and sometimes it just is not true or genuine in nature as Andra originally described.

Thanks for your input.

QUOTE
But also to get some perspective about the intimate relationship that developed out of an accidental occurance of mutual recognition and insight between my friend and I. For us it was quite an accident and unexpected, and something neither of us was looking for. But that fact still didn't stop me from questoning everything.


Noname, I know of this quite well.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#96 [url]

Feb 24 11 5:07 PM

I don't judge the men who come to my room negatively, but I can imagine that if a woman's hit again and again with abusive comments, or if she's been manipulated, or just generally screwed out of her well-earned wage, it would be difficult to keep a balanced perspective. I've been lucky. My visitors tend to self-select, and I hope it stays that way.

The idea of taking a woman private as a gesture of love or affection is tricky, because you're right: that could be leveraged into a means of pulling as much money as possible out of a man (I'd hope he'd know the difference between a woman who's working him and a woman who enjoys his company and appreciates his generosity). Personally, I think it's a gesture of respect. It doesn't take away from the authenticity of our experience, and it acknowledges that when I'm on cam, those are my working hours. So that tells me he respects my time.

QUOTE
Questions of trust, honesty, and other things then come to the surface. Which then some could ask, are you only interested in me for my money?


Similarly, we might ask: are you just interested in the 'me' you see on cam - dressed up, attentive, available? Are you just interested in the chase? Do you view me as a potential conquest? An anecdote? Are you going to manipulate me for sport?

QUOTE
Does a person truly need to prove how much they care for a person by paying for it.


Certainly not, but in the camming world, where time and attention is charged by the minute, it tells me that you're interested in more than the quick panty flash and possibly me as a human being. My feeling is that you pay for time and undivided attention. Anyone seeking a reciprocal connection won't be able to pay for that - payment is just a generous and, to my mind, respectful gesture. You might pay to get to know someone. You might pay so that she'll get the chance to get to know you. That said, I'm acutely aware of those who pay for very long privates and I tend to be loyal to them. I don't take their generosity as a sign of affection - I take it as a sign that they're not just coming in to get off, that they're actually interested in me as more than a conveniently nude model (unless that long private is primarily an involved fantasy I'm playing out for them). It makes the experience more human.

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#97 [url]

Feb 24 11 5:42 PM

very nice posts, nocturne.

I recognized myself in many of your thoughts and I couldn't have said it any better.


CG

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#98 [url]

Feb 24 11 6:38 PM

nocturne,

Speaking for myself, not only did you sum it up, you articulated each aspect as clearly as is possible. Please come back often. Or at least to straighten out a thread, if it's looking like tangled up spagetti.

"I am very little inclined on any occasion to say anything unless I hope to produce some good by it."
Abraham Lincoln

"I was mute with silence, I held my peace from good; and my sorrow was stirred up."
Psalm 39:2

There is what one knows, there is what one knows they don't know, and there is what one does not know what they do not know.
(mis-quote from an arrogant and dangerous fool, who had at least these wise words to say, if he had only used them to guide his actions)

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#99 [url]

Feb 24 11 6:42 PM

Beautifully written and explained Nocturne.

I also, as camgirl states found or used to find myself in the same situations, but from the other side of the screen.

If I may then, Nocturne, at the expense of the original premise, if I may ask you this then:

How do you view those who have formed a relationship away from the work and then from a members perspective, find that they had thought that there is some sort of connection and attraction towards one another, and then the model, expects payment for time away from their work environment?

I am not referring to both parties agreeing upon a show for payment away from the work, but where they may ask for payment for just the opportunity to chat with her.

Or perhaps, When the initial crossover from work to personal time, begins to turn into gifting, and asking for assistance monetarily?

Could one say, that this is where the member should take a step back and decide or view what the motivations are or signs being displayed mean?

I agree completely with the signs of mutual respect in the context of your job.

Been there, done that. camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#100 [url]

Feb 24 11 7:26 PM

Thanks to everyone for the kind words. It's really nice to be able to talk so openly about something I tend to keep to myself.

QUOTE
How do you view those who have formed a relationship away from the work and then from a members perspective, find that they had thought that there is some sort of connection and attraction towards one another, and then the model, expects payment for time away from their work environment?


I think that's a delicate situation.

Assuming she's not working you - and I'd like to assume that - then the logic is something like this: she works x number of hours a day, and she needs to makes x amount to cover her rent, bills, monthly budget, etc. If she takes time away from work to be with you, then she's probably going to fall short. It's uncomfortable, but not unreasonable, to ask if you'd cover what she'd make otherwise.

And then there's the cultural factor, the notion of chivalry, where men tend to pay for dinner, drinks, etc. So it might seem chivalrous of you to offer her some financial security if, to see you, she needs to cut back her working hours.

Now, I'm saying this as someone who doesn't do this. I feel like financial expectations can get in the way of a relationship - I don't want him to feel like he needs to pay for my presence, and I don't want to feel like I owe him something for his generosity. But I also have the luxury of making those choices. If I were living from paycheck to paycheck, I wouldn't have a choice. If I had to choose between making rent and making time for a relationship, and if it's a matter of survival, I'm going to choose what keeps me from falling into debt.

QUOTE
Or perhaps, When the initial crossover from work to personal time, begins to turn into gifting, and asking for assistance monetarily?

Could one say, that this is where the member should take a step back and decide or view what the motivations are or signs being displayed mean?


I'd say yes. On one hand, she might genuinely need to be compensated to off-set the time she's spending away from work. On the other hand, some women do view camming as a hustle and never shut that hustle off. And it could be some grey area between the two. Maybe her emotions are absolutely genuine, but only within the parameters of a paid relationship, which isn't the same as someone who pretends to be in love for money. And some women just want someone to take care of them financially, no matter what career path they've chosen.

So if I were in that position, I'd ask myself what I'm comfortable with, financially and emotionally.

And definitely look for signs that she might not be sincere. I hate being cynical, but it's true that you don't want to be just a mark being hustled for extra cash, especially when it's becoming personal, so I'd look for signs of manipulation, particularly passive aggression, mood swings that coincide with payment, and (possibly manufactured) personal drama. I really hope that isn't the case, though.

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