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bambalina

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Aug 7 11 1:56 AM

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{This is the continuation of the MFC Petition thread - from which it was separated out as a distinct topic by Me - EB.Look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=3008}

{Trainer} Not sure if you're American, but think so...and I am of the opinion that what makes America great, is not how we make everything good illegal, but how we have a Constitution that does the opposite in the sense of Individual Liberty taking Precedence. Jefferson seemed to understand that if you give 250,000,000 CARS, a percentage of them, even a small one, would be freaking knuckleheads with those cars, drive drunk, talk on their cells and text while driving, fall asleep at the wheel, etc. But we do not illegalize driving because of it, and yet when it comes to drugs and sex, the same cannot be said.

I mean, I read all of the threads on here about the trafficking, and you all who read me, know I am VERY anti-trafficking, but I also do not think it is that much worse (and in some cases BETTER) than the Nike Sweatshops and the other horrific labor conditions where they are allowed to have children as low as 6 years old working 14 hours per day. I mean, everyone here pays so much attention to the poor exploited women, and I am GLAD they get the attention, but it isn't about SEX, it is about people who exploit other people for profit. PERIOD. So for me, the white knightism enters the picture when you forget that little boys work in sweat shops in asia and die of being overworked.

For me, I am about creating something new. I believe that sex is fun and nakedness is fun and that it can be a fun and wonderful way to make money as well, and a VERY honest relationship between camgirl and guest, but it has to be FRAMED that way, and the way the male dominated porn culture works just sets the stage for a really negative experience for all concerned.

The same exists in porn movies. Find and watch a movie called "Femme" by Candida Royalle (url removed by EB) and you will see what I mean. Then go to a strip club, and compare that to the burlesque shows of the 40's where the women were stars (Gypsy Rose Lee, Candy Barr, Lili St. Cyr, Sally Rand and many others) who did artistic, fun sexy shows that were treated with respect and were about sensuality and style. Well, See the Neo Burlesque movement (Wikipedia Here) for examples of people who are sick of the trashed out strip club motif, and want to bring something fun and exciting back. It even exists in erotica on the internet, from the "Simple Nudes" fans, to those who love the retro stuff, either in real form (as in old antique porn and vintage photos), or the Neo-Movement with it'e older style look and Pin-up sensibility, where women are treated more as Goddesses to be adored than sexual toys to be played with and discarded.

So, I think there is far more to the whole thing than just the seemingly black and white poles with some shades of grey in between, and I believe the nuances of "color and hue" exist in this discussion. To pin it any one way is lock humans into a static mold that has failed in every case it tries to be be applied.

B
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#1 [url]

Aug 7 11 6:20 AM

Bambalina, what is your definition of white knightism?


I totally agree with your mention of sweat shops and slave labor and how corporations use slave labor to earn bigger profits off of other human beings.

I believe in equality of all human beings.

Not just for the women who are mistreated in the sex industry but for children who are sold off by their parents to merely survive in a country where poverty is commonplace. Where men and women migrate to other countries to earn a decent wage because in their homelands their governments are so corrupt and their government does anything to maintain its power to keep its citizens in a poverty stricken status quo.

Perhaps that is why there are so many women from Eastern Europe and other third world countries that need to work in the sex industry to survive. Unlike the great country of America where there still is some opportunity for many who work hard and are for the most part treated better than many others around the world who have the chance to live a productive and happy fulfilling life.

White Knightism in the world of camming has morphed into something obsessive for some members, due to what some women told them about their lives in their countries. Some of it is true and some of it is fabricated. It also is a term created by pirates towards members who have attempted to assist models with pirated material.

If you want to make this industry better and as you state, it is the "man" who keeps you down if I read you loud and clear,go for it. But when I had to listen to a woman tell me stories of how bad things are for them at the sake of earning a buck off of me or anyone else while others tell me things are not that bad as they portray things to be, then I have to wonder who is fooling whom.

Do I need to read other members who go out of their way to send loads of cash, gifts and pretend that they are a womans knight in shining armor, when all it really is in truth is a sham and/or scam, then I do believe something just aint kosher in the grand scheme of things.

Albeit, there are women who can barely survive in a cut throat world of camming and that genuinely and honestly they are very desperate to earn bank.

I used to have fun and enjoy myself way too much many years ago in the world of camming, but in due time as some recent members here have confessed that it becomes an illusion that does not fulfill or create any more enjoyment for them. Or perhaps it is the fact that quite a few have been rung out to dry and treated with such disdain and contempt that if it were reversed, you and many others would scream bloody murder. But of course, that is what is written,at times, on that other forum.

It's a two way street isn't it? It works both ways.

What I am annoyed with is when I have to read or hear anyone tell me that I am fodder, or anyone else who visits you and your colleagues. That we should all be treated as just a bunch of perverted wankers and primed for the taking, that there in itself is a huge hypocritical judgement of your bread and butter, you all make bank on. Have you honestly read some of what your colleagues say about people and members, and how they all are ripe for the taking? I am quite sure you have.

To read how you expect respect from those that enter your chat when basically most of the written word I read on that other forum,that many have such contempt and a holier than thou attitude towards most men. I truly wonder where that came from objectively. I can come pretty close to the reasons why though many think like that.

How do you expect anyone to return any respect when anyone who enters into a chat room is viewed as nothing more than just a dollar sign. I know this is a job and I am not blind as to what you gals have to deal with either. But fair play works both ways.

Personally, I have assisted fighting and helping women I do not even know with pirated material. This after many a time some of your counterparts have treated others and as I have experienced as well, an indignity and quite honestly a lack of respect as one human being towards another.

I suggest that you not only fight the pimps who control your industry but also instruct your colleagues to have some ethics and professionalism as well.

QUOTE
for examples of people who are sick of the trashed out strip club motif, and want to bring something fun and exciting back. It even exists in erotica on the internet, from the "Simple Nudes" fans, to those who love the retro stuff, either in real form (as in old antique porn and vintage photos), or the Neo-Movement with it'e older style look and Pin-up sensibility, where women are treated more as Goddesses to be adored than sexual toys to be played with and discarded.


Well look around you, it is up to some of your colleagues to stop lowering the bar so much, if you don't want to be treated as sexual toys and discarded. The premise of camming is a study in objectification of both individuals,both the member and the chat host.

A chat host I was very intimate with,once said, to Uncle here....


"This place strips the humanity from all that enter it".


The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#2 [url]

Aug 7 11 11:44 AM

I agree with Trainer that the use of the term "White Knightism" to describe CGN was popularized by the pirates on the "franc-tireur" forum to mock the "e-knights" who were spoiling their trophy hunt by helping our model members' find and delete their pirated videos - see image below and this topic - http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1574

QUOTE

A White Knight or E-whiteknight is what the forum users call other male users who are overly nice to or frequently defend female posters on the forum. White Knights typically refer to male posters and is frequently accompanied by one of the many pictures cited in this article.


So that makes the pirate hunters a specific Camland-variant on the type of customer strippers often call "Cap'n Save A HO" look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1757

QUOTE

Captain Sav-a-Ho... He's here to save us from the horrors of stripping. He thinks we seem really smart and he bets that we could even get a real job. You know, he just see's so much potential in us he doesn't understand why we're degrading ourselves this way. He'll piss you off and bring your mood down, so just ignore him. Unless your in the mood to fuck with his head back.

White Knight.. See above.



Needless to say, this makes anyone who falls into this category an object of ridicule.. and is one reason why most male members on CGN are allergic to the term - even if our anti-pirate campaign of several years ago made it seem as if it applied to us as well.

BTW, the CGN Pirate Watch - which helped to take down several thousands pirated videos over the past four years - didn't quite fit the usual "White Knight" description because there was no quid-pro-quo expected when we gave technical support and information to enable models to clean up their internet, "video trail." We supplied info - but the models, or their studio admins, wrote the actual complaint letters. By so doing, they quickly learned where to look for their pirated shows and the drill required by each file-sharing site to get them removed - without further involvement by us. When you take yourself out of the loop by sharing information, it's actually the opposite of the kind of "White Knightism" that seeks to establish emotional intimacy with a model by encouraging her to depend on your protection...

So I would prefer the term non-sex worker, "friend or ally" to the term "E-knight" which has so many (deservedly) nasty overtones. Look at this post by FurryGirl of Feminisnt, about her attempt to mobilize clients as allies in the on-going culture war over sex work and trafficking in the UK and the US. She's not getting much of a response from other Escorts or Cam models - perhaps because of their disdain for and fear of the "White-Knight Syndrome." Here's what she said here in this post: http://www.feminisnt.com/topics/allies/.
QUOTE

After a couple of weeks of peeking at the Twitter feed of Ashton Kutcher's fans talking about trafficking, it's very clear that most people lobbing opinions on the subject (and angrily contacting their elected officials) know nothing beyond sensationalist crusades led by celebrities, covered by media outlets who gussy up the story to be as dramatic and upsetting as possible.

I need help in creating an important resource that does not seem to exist yet. Unlike the mainstream anti-trafficking and anti-sex work groups that view all males as probably drooling for a chance to rape a child sex slave, I want SWAAY to show real consideration and appreciation of clients who strive to be ethical. I think the American sex workers' rights movement is missing out by neglecting to court clients as allies or consider them potential supporters.

For one, I am still still seeking short pieces of advice from current and former sex workers on how clients can be respectful and ethical towards us.� I am hugely disappointed that after a month of the site being live, not a single sex worker has submitted a suggestion for how clients can treat them better.

Secondly, since I have not seen such a resource anywhere yet, I'd like to add information specifically for clients of sex workers who might be concerned about seeing an underage prostitute or someone who is being abused. Clients are in a better position than celebrities, NGOs, and even sex workers to locate and report potential victims of exploitation. Yet, I don't believe I've ever seen anything from the sex workers' rights movement targeted at clients to give them information about how they might attempt to identify and report suspected forced trafficking, abuse, or underage victims.


What Furrygirl has suggests about sex work clients reporting abuse applies equally well to cam site members who see underage models on web-sites or hear reports about abuse by studio owners or the police in countries like The Ukraine. Indeed that kind of data collection and reporting has been going on here for years on a voluntary basis.. So why not try to organize it better? Enough said for now.

BTW, Bambalina, we don't allow links to commercial porn sites here, so I redacted your post to remove the link to Candide Royale's website. But we have paid close attention to the emergence of feminist porn directors who are trying to make porn films that are user-friendly for women.

Look here for a note on Candide Royale and some others battling the "dark, gonzo porn" genre that dominates the video industry and increasing influences the kinds of "extreme content," hard fuck shows that cam customers want to see acted out by their favorite cam models. http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1947

And again Bamablina, I'm glad to see that you have rejoined us as an active member.

Now as soon as we pass your personal "smell test," why not try to convince some of your friends that CGN is "secure enough" for them to begin visiting us again..lol

UL
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"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#3 [url]

Aug 7 11 12:47 PM

And now another Pirate spoof of a "White Knight." It's pretty clear that they think the primary motivation of a "whitehat hacker" who hunts pirated vids is a sexual reward.. or a financial payment.. We don't expect any thing like that - because if we did, it would appear like "blackmail," and some cam model critic would immediately jump on that to stick it to CGN - one more time...

Look here for the "backstory" on these kind of charges against CGN: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1017

QUOTE

Uncle Lewis;
Posted November 09, 2008

I have an up-date on the topic that kept us running in circles here last winter and spring _ "The True Identity of the Pirates Uncovered by the Girls of Studio 13."

In short, most of the girls in one Bucharest studio were convinced that the members of this forum were recording their shows - then deleting the links so we could dash to their rescue as loyal "E-Knights." Needless to say, this topic caused untold mirth on the Pirate forum where they were laughing their asses off for weeks over this story - and while I can't tell you how I got them, I did read the transcripts of all their chats about this pirate caper so I know they were heartily amused at our expense.

Here's the link to our thread: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=668

Now we have an up-date on this story that adds another winning twist to our annals of internet infamy. It turns out that the pirate on sniper who was systematically recording all of the Bucharest models shows and posting them on the file-sharing sites was one of the Bucharest Studio Admins who went rogue and turned to the dark side. BTW he was not ever a member of this forum!!. But he was the friend of one of the PF models in Bucharest and used his knowledge of studio and web-site passwords to access all of the archived private shows - even those of his own model friends.

We can assume he was the one who used his position as a trusted insider to spread the word that the real pirates were actually the members of this forum...
Nine months later I am Still Laughing My Ass Off. Talk about "killing two birds with one stone," this guy knew an opportunity when he saw one and worked all of the angles to his own advantage.



So Remember our Camland motto: "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished..." lool
This is yet another reason to avoid the "e-knight" label whenever possible.

UL
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"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#4 [url]

Aug 8 11 2:16 PM

Here's a reply by Roast to Trainer's post above which was re-posted for comment on SW by Bambalina. I am taking the liberty of re-posting it here for your information but also because non model members on SW can't reply to posts in the "Camming Connection." But we can and will answer criticism here.

So Roast says among other things that:

QUOTE


So much of capitalism thrives on women's labor and women's bodies (take agriculture, farming, clothes, beauty, fashion industry, etc) - is it upsetting when the woman is more direct about this auto-"exploitation"? Much of what CGN appears to take issue with is capitalism in general and independent workers of the sex industry specifically - but relegate sex workers into being lumpen proletariat - useless mindless slaves...instead of just regular workers, working for a regular shitty boss. Because we sell ourselves, we're extra-special and extra-mean.


And generally speaking, Roast is pretty much on target, and not wrong in thinking that at least some of us here are closeted DOMS (Dirty Old Marxists) who do have serious reservations about the Neo-liberal version of Global Capitalism which has destabilized the climate system, and destroyed jobs, industries and now whole national economies - including our own. In many ways, the global sex industry is a perfect expression of the capitalist logic that transforms all human needs and all living things into commodities for sale - usually subject to corporate control and copyright. We dispute that logic that values people and things only when and if they can be assigned a market price and sold at a profit. So we are guilty as charged, (or at least a few of us are). lol.

But I disagree with her characterization of CGN as claiming that most cam girls belong to the "lumpen proletariat" who are necessarily found on the bottom rung of the global labor market..or inevitably fall into a super exploited sub-group. This is true for some studio models in a few countries, Colombia, The Philippines, Russia, South Africa and the Ukraine..but NOT (as) true for studio models in Romania or Central Europe or for most Western independents who run their own sex commerce.. I agree with her that many of these workers have significant bargaining power and enough autonomy on the job "to set the terms of their own exploitation." But those bargaining advantages are vulnerable to changes in the Web-site business models and the kind of "marketing innovations" we have seen on MFC, PF and SM (Free Shows for tips, VOD shows and free teaser videos on Tube Sites, etc) have increased the cut-throat competition between studio and independent models and resulted in cut pay-cuts for most cam-models across the industry

So the CGN's perspective on camming is actually more nuanced than Roast seems to think because we recognize that sex work professions are both sharply differentiated and highly stratified. There is no one single "sex work" but only different "sex works" which occupy distinct niches in an integrated, global "vaginal economy." Ofc course in the course of her career, any one sex worker may be recycled through more than one of these occupations. But I won't rehash my argument, since I've plastered it all over this forum repeatedly for anyone to read for themselves. lol... (For instance in my recent response to our newest Romanian member here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...st=0#entry19931 )

So let's attend instead to Roast's argument that cam customers are different from most other sex work clients, and especially vulnerable to "over-personalizing" their commercial transactions with their favorite cam models. And to her comment about the need to hide her level of education from her regular clients so as to comfort their assumption of "status superiority..." Oh if they only suspected how much cultural capital she actually possesses.. I guess we can feel somewhat flattered that she certainly doesn't keep the cutting edge of her intellect hidden around us, or ever hesitate to puncture our smug "sense of entitlement" with her sharp stiletto wit every time the opportunity presents itself.. lool

UL

QUOTE

Many customers understand that the sex industry is a fantasy - I'm unsure why cam customers seem to have an extraordinarily difficult time getting this. The best regulars get it. The freeloaders and white knights just don't. If you read SW and reading the Customer Conversations - many of the blues 'get it' and will instruct the blues who don't in an instant.

Camming - not so much. Probably because physically entering a strip club the customer is publicaly acknowledging his identity, what he wants for the few hours, there may be less shame, and he has a general idea of what he is there for. Camming? We're broadcasting into your homes where you are completely alone. You may think we're just talking to you and you alone. So the fantasy can become completely blurred for the customer because they don't see us physically going from customer to customer, changing, on the phone with boyfriends, leaving for the night, etc.

I think doing back-flips for those who don't understand (and those who don't pay, CGN is pretty open about not or ever paying) isn't a valuable time investment. It is an interesting sociological case study of gendered addiction denial in general... but asides from fueling my admittedly borderline-ridiculous raging hard on for them: their opinion ultimately does not matter since they don't spend. They aren't our target audience from a promotional standpoint. Well they generate $ because their freeloading and clicking around generates ad revenue for MFC,SM and other sites where free chat is mandatory (CGN is here btw since Ive gotten PMs asking what it is. SW is usually referred to as 'that other forum', they have some history here here and here)

When I keep it honest with customers the fantasy is killed and I lose money. That is what the fantasy and customer service is. Look two weeks a longtime customer said that he did not believe what I said was my level of education. Since we had a brief conversation about the debt ceiling fiasco he'd been suspicious, he kept hounding me because he did not know a cam model could know what 'default' means. So I eventually told him the truth. He did all of this nervous laughter, quizzed me jokingly, compared me to him (oh no! Im human, ahhh) freaked out - and I haven't seen him since. I used to see this customer about 3times a week for 6months. If my honesty is financially rewarded (I am a worker more than I am an object - the bottom line is king), Id give it.

Men are shocked&appalled when their misogyny is met with misandry, as if there won't be a response to to that crappy system. That 'misandry' isn't even substantive because asides from complaining about customers in threads & hurting non-paying customer's feelings.... what impact does it have in a pervasive big way that can be prepared to misogyny? Not much.

If your motives are dishonest for being in this cam room with me (you just want to chat, fall in love, befriend, save, instruct) when my purpose is very clear (sexual, titillating, earning, flattering) - then is it my problem for profiting off of your misunderstanding or the site's? Or is it reflective of how lonely technology is making members of the world? Or how the porn industry is changing? Whose problem is that exactly? Id say it is the customer's problem for being dishonest about his motives.

If men want to chat me up and get to know me in public at the supermarket Id be fine with it. I'm not expecting money, they aren't expected to pay, it is not a sexual setting, we're just two fully dressed regular people trying to buy cantaloupes. Does this happen? Uh, not really. I'm too human then.. so I am probably of no use to you sexually since I'm not visual objectification fodder. But does it happen whenever I click 'broadcast' 'go online' 'launch cam'... yes. Within seconds. I expect this, I dress and behave intentionally to create that lull of objectification. So that makes me an asshole?

If men are addicted to the cam industry then reading this would be helpful for them to learn that when someone is dehumanized they eventually dehumanize you back. Sure the system is dehumanizing but there are individuals within this system. When someone's job is to be an object and you refuse to do it and get mad when the object talks or bites back - then why are you here? Like Sxxx, I'm fully aware that my body is my brand is my business. Sasha Grey is one of my favorite porn performers because she was very upfront about this: she is a vehicle of sexual desire for profit. She's still viewed as intelligent, still loves her customers, but knows what her purpose is and how to profit from it.

Why that hurts and is so enraging to some consumers, I'm not sure. Virgin Whore complex? The object of your fantasy views you like an object too? So much of capitalism thrives on women's labor and women's bodies (take agriculture, farming, clothes, beauty, fashion industry, etc) - is it upsetting when the woman is more direct about this auto-"exploitation"? Much of what CGN appears to take issue with is capitalism in general and independent workers of the sex industry specifically - but relegate sex workers into being lumpenproletariat - useless mindless slaves...instead of just regular workers, working for a regular shitty boss. Because we sell ourselves, we're extra-special and extra-mean.

Again, customers on SW get it, porn customers get it, escort and IRL customers sometimes get it, but most cam customers don't. The good ones get it, the regulars get it. But the ones who stalk, obsess, get weird, etc. are the ones who don't are such a headache.

Im also not sure why they think we'd be upset if they said bad things about cam girls - customers do it all the time. Its in forums everywhere. In every cam girl's room right now. Its subconsciously in the mind of every pirater who downloads us without paying. This isn't new to us and flatly they do all the time: that weird myopic focus on sexual exploitation is its own form of insult (when B, I 100% agree with your post here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/i...showtopic=3026, all labor exploitation is fucked up - making it specifically gendered and specifically about sex and specifically about a glamorized and taboo industry makes your motives as 'concerned consumers' hilariously suspect).

Your opinion impacts my business practices when you pay. I am a brand, I am for sale. I want to create as much hype about me as the next iPhone - because I am an iPhone. Steve Jobs doesn't care about the linux open-source users who don't buy his product - because they don't buy his product. Successful (consensual) sex workers think the same except the product is them. If that messes with your perception of how women are supposed to behave or perceive themselves - then, man, you really thought this capitalism thing was just a boy's club?

..... Cough, well OK, yes it is, but Id like a small whiff of that boy's club before the revolution. Id like to fund the revolution myself if I can.


Ofc we're not the only Marxists out there in CamLandia. Here's a photo of FurryGirl of Feminisnt Blog at Marx's Grave in London. Caption: "Karl Marx's headstone: "Workers of all lands unite." I approve this message." And so do we....
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"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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nurgg03

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#5 [url]

Aug 9 11 3:25 PM

You guys are Marxists? That makes me sad! As someone born and brought up in that disgusting, corrupt, inhumane system I can tell you one thing: with all its problems, all its warts, all its imperfections, western liberal capitalism is the best system ever designed by humankind. It's the system that gave us the computers we are writing this on and the cams we use to watch and be watched in the internet. In addition to inventing insulin and about five million other things without which life would be much shorter and much harsher. Marxism gave us gulags, mass murder, mock trials and the annihilation of basic freedoms. Just last night I watched an interesting documentary about the fall of the Berlin Wall. East Germany had 90 thousand active spies, 200 thousand informers and secret files on ONE THIRD of its entire population.

I apologize for this being off topic but I can't let the support of Marxism slide by without expressing my opinion. Thank you.

George

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#6 [url]

Aug 9 11 3:56 PM

Nurgg03, there are all kinds of varieties of Marxists - just as there are of feminists. The Marxists I am talking about are Western "Democratic Marxists" that are commonly found on the left wing of the major Socialist parties in Latin America and Western Europe.

This is not the same thing as "Soviet Marxism" which is pretty much dead as an ideology. - after having come to close to killing off Socialism as a legitimate political position along with some 80 million people who were caught under communist one party rule. However there always was and still is a Socialist competitor for Marx's legacy ( the Labour, Social Democrat, Democratic Socialist Parties), a democratic marxism.. organized within the Socialist International which today has about 200 Member Parties on all Continents.

My own Party the Democratic Socialists of America is one of them- but certainly also one of the smallest and most marginal. But we can't say that about the Canadian New Democrats; the Brazilian Workers Party (Lula) or the Mexican PRD.

So Remember the SI rule; "If it's not democratic, it's not socialist.."
And increasingly we can add that if it's not feminist or green, it's not socialist either.
UL

P.S. this position is shared by lots of us:
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=319
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"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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bambalina

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Posts: 45

#7 [url]

Aug 9 11 4:49 PM

I believe the White Knightism you guys here get accused of, has more to do with a general feeling one gets when reading here, that SOME of you don't believe that women can run their own lives and decide for themselves if something is exploiting them and so on, without help from men who see the dangers that the "little ladies" miss.

B

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#8 [url]

Aug 9 11 5:47 PM

Point taken. but we began here with Ukrainian and then Eastern European Studio models who were often pretty naive about what they were getting themselves into.. and who were often being actively and deliberately deceived about their risks of exposure in their home countries...

Look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1959

Or here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=593

We thought for several years that this level of knowledge and sophistication about the industry these models had joined was typical of the newbies in the industry...
Then we met the western independent models and learned how wrong headed that assumption turned out to be... So again.. point taken, Bambalina.

As we said three years ago:

QUOTE

Many of us also shared a fantasy that we were a club of "e-knights" who could rescue women from this industry - women who in the final analysis didn't want to be rescued at all. We were told time and time again by our model members: "I am not stupid. I know what I am doing. I choose to do this work." And we didn't want to hear that message. Hence some of the recriminations we hear here over models' refusal of our offers of aid. But we must accept the fact that the women working in this industry do not see themselves as its victims. They see it as an opportunity for social mobility and economic security in countries where women are marginalized in the formal labor markets.

I think that what our models members wanted to hear was more discussion regarding issues dealing with pay-scales, their safety from online predators like pirates and stalkers and in some countries like the Ukraine - protection from police raids. They don't see the industry as their enemy, but as an employer with whom they have issues - like any other kind of worker. Again they refuse to see themselves as victims needing rescue. In their view, the only real victims are the men who serve them as "cash cows."

We didn't agree with this self-understanding since we argue that the employers in this industry are especially deceitful in the ways this job is advertised and models are disciplined and trained after they are hired. And we saw it as our mission to make sure that models are "perfectly well informed" about the risks of piracy and public exposure that could eventually subject them to "naming and shaming" in their home communities, or to criminal prosecution in the Ukraine.

I don't regret having done that, and still consider it one of the most useful services we perform for the models who drop in to read our alerts and informational posts. But we can understand why this kind of information is not exactly welcome. From a model's point of view, it falls into the "TMI" category - that is, "too much information" about issues that most models don't want discussed in public venues.

So all in all, we might have done better to stick to our original focus on "labor rights" and "working conditions" in this industry. We will have to return to that focus, if we ever want to re-open a serious dialogue with our models members.



Which is pretty much the position we are in now..and the only possible basis for cooperation in some of the fights that are looming in the near future.

QUOTE

We need to discuss the hows more, but there' a support role for outside observers with journalistic or academic credentials to play in in the political fights over sex work and the Internet that are coming up in the next round of America's Sex Wars. I still believe that's a role where this forum can play make a contribution. The sex industry is under siege in the US because for some Americans the idea of women selling sex is a scandal, and more to the point, for a lot of men, the idea of you're selling sex and then keeping the lion's share of the money earned is absolutely intolerable. So the Christian Right, the Radical Feminists and their liberal friends are in a sense the objective allies of the cops and the mafias who would drive sex commerce underground again so as to restore male leverage over you. I think that we should agree that you are going to need some allies at some point and that those allies need to be part of the conversation.


UL

P.S. For very different take on all this, read my exchanges with Nocturne here:
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=2737
--------------------
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"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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bambalina

Very Talkative

Posts: 45

#9 [url]

Aug 15 11 10:39 AM

Let me ask.

What do you DO about helping women in this industry?

I mean, I would assume you all think my "Collective Camsite" owned by models is a great idea, and could alter the future of camming. Yet no-one has offered to help, contribute money (I am not asking, and don't need it), or even asked how you guys fit into the model's world as far as changing things.

If you guys see me as some sort of leader of cam-models who is years ahead of her time, if I am your Model Heroine...which you sometimes make it seem...How come not one of you has every said, "Ok Bambalina, we bow to your superior wisdom and experience, and we throw ourselves submissively at your feet to do with as you please! Put us to work oh great SuperWoman!"



Funny maybe, but also this joke has sharp and painful barbs, which point out exactly why you get the reception you do in many quarters.

How many of you have written to Leo from MFC asking him why he is ruining camming and demanding he take MFC back to a place where it is much less exploitative to women and much more monetarily fair for everyone involved?

How many have written MFC itself asking for a return to the RULES?

How many of you have spent a day taking screen shots and reporting models who blatantly break the rules and hurt the women and business of camming?

How many of you have opened up FAIR websites that treat women right and make camming what it SHOULD be!?

How many of you have made yourself vulnerable and available not as lecturing father figures, but as friends, and even HELPERS (yes, a submissive position) to camgirls who are doing things and changing ideas?

How many of you...have done what is necessary to convince the overall cam-model community that you are really their FRIENDS?

Because THAT my friends, is where you fail worst.

B

PS. "We sit around and TALK, and verbally masturbate about the intelletuality and superior moral stance, and Marxist rightness..." is a SERIOUSLY un-acceptable answer.

What do you DO?

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#10 [url]

Aug 15 11 2:07 PM

cool.gif Agreed Bambalina, or did you mean "What Have You Done For Me lately??" lol

Our activist side has been pretty much restricted to combating the pirate crews on PF, Peeks and MFC. So what we have DONE is to "help" a thousand models take down over 10 thousand + pirated videos of their private shows... As I have explained elsewhere in this thread.. and in our various "pirate trophy topics." For instance, look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...=ST&f=15&t=1050 ..
Ofc, we have stopped advertizing this kind of activity because we learned that drawing attention to it in public did more harm than good. But that hasn't stop us from alerting 5 models in the past two days on the QT as to their degree of public exposure..and suggesting ways for them to deal with it. We do that kind of thing every week.

And certainly, one could argue that finding and sharing information about this secretive industry is in itself a form of action-research when done as a collaborative effort between models and members. There are lots of taboo topics in Camlandia, and we love to break idols. So CGN has done quite a bit to publicize the the tricky language in Model Contracts; the way in which web-site owners use models private shows - their "copyrighted content" - to advertize their web-sites in ways that expose models in their home communities and countries - not to mention issues of under-age models doing shows in public for under-age web-surfers..ETC..ETC..You know the story because we both actually agree on what the big problems ARE in the cam industry.. But please don't say we didn't do our best to call attention to them and educate any "nube" studio model or naive members who came our way.. After all we cherish our well earned reputation as the baddest, most consistently "down-beat" bunch of TROLLS in Camlandia. And we intend to keep it that way. lol

But agreed Bambalina, we do need to teach this old dog some new tricks especially now that our pirate watch is pretty much of a "dead letter."

So yes, Bamb, I agree that we should all join your letter writing campaign to Leo. I am sure we'll find lots to say. And if not, there's plenty of material posted here about how his web-site's( lack of ) management and marketing strategy has helped to make camming more difficult as well as plain degrading for models. And then we could add our own complaints about MFC's Legal Department and their total lack of action on the piracy front.. except to recommend that their models add an MFC watermark to all their shows so as to take maximum advantage of the inevitable acts of piracy that MFC does absolutely nothing to stop...lool.

So post a sample letter and Leo's personal email addys and request that our members to go to work..

We're only too eager. to enlist.. And of course you can count on us.
See photo below.. lol.

UL
--------------------
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"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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bambalina

Very Talkative

Posts: 45

#11 [url]

Aug 21 11 4:14 PM

Intelligently thought out Blogs....

Blog about how the anti-porn movement is a fricking racket based on absolute moralism and censorship. Blog about a woman's right to do with her body as she sees fit. About how these same friggin' feminists will stand on a picket line to keep abortion legal in the US, but will then talk about helping women out of porn against their will. Oh well, your body isn't yours where PORN is concerned because THAT'S EEEEEEEVIL!

Mostly blog about how EROTICA could be done right. How women's beauty and sexuality is a FINE subject for viewing and enjoying, and how it isn't the whole concept of sexuality being business that is wrong, but the way it is expressed and who owns it and all that.


Blogs are the present way of communicating and getting your words on the internet...they are posterity and they are our newest form of journalism and News.

We can also gather all the sex positive we can find on the internet. Stuff that actually fulfills a sexually postive, sexually mature attitude and make a repository for it.

How about forming a MEN's GROUP that has a home-page (with links and a board or two here) that is about men for ethical, female based, erotica. Men for EMPOWERMENT instead of objectification.

You have THIS forum to help you leapfrog these ideas into reality and help them gain traction....

There's a billion free Blogs out there, and lots of free website spots. Or sheesh...at worse a domain is $4.99 and hosting as about $4 a month.

Let's CHANGE the entire porn industry into an erotic womanderland of lovely happy non-coerced beauties...

B

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#12 [url]

Aug 21 11 5:35 PM

That's quite some food for thought, Bambalina.

I will say that when MFC and Leo created the tips feature, we here spoke out about it.

Honestly, some wrote about how it would negatively change the way the cam business is presented to its customers.

What happened is that greed and desperation by some made it a bad form of capitalism.

If this was 7-9 years ago, I personally would join you in your venture to regain back the ethical and professional way to conduct your business of camming, but these days I personally can not promote it with any passion nor in a manner that would benefit me personally.

People lose the excitement and enjoyment of things when it either gets too personal or too invasive into the reality of their lives. For all the fantasy and as Roast writes, regarding the lure of objectifying oneself on the premise that I must also be objectified as well, simply does not fit my views any longer. I would much rather stay real and have real fantasies that are more constructive and places a bigger smile upon my face than simply masturbating to a digital stream of an image of a naked woman across the internet.

These days, my fantasies, are more of a realistic dream which is more constructive and productive, which can eventually become a real source of factual resulted hope and realization to all parties involved. I can just as easily fantasize and orgasm to my own visual fantasy for nothing. A real man can speak and chat with a woman for nothing and still have great sex without the need for paying for it. But then again, freedom of choice for you. Just as my freedom of choice not to pay for something I can get in reality. Just the facts.

I will gladly add my voice to signing and changing MFC's business model and the way Leo conducts his business.

I will also add to Roasts comment that they are incorrect in assuming that all here do not pay for anything in camland.

I did, I have, and guess what, for my good friends whom I do not objectify as a sexual object(which they prefer it that way), I have supplemented their time because it simply is a job for them.

As far as truly caring for people as human beings, personally, I have had the chance again, to genuinely and without anything asked in return, to help those in need. That may either be with encouragement, advice, friendship, even respectful love, and yes, at times financially. Nothing inhumane with that. I would hope my true good real friends would do the same for me,if need be. And I even saved a real life(not that I am bragging or boasting here).

Finally, I will tell you a true fact about MFC and how they conduct business these days.

Someone I know has only been a guest visiting a few acquaintances and friends on MFC occasionally. At least those women did not use the ban feature to silence lowly guests because it was just some business like job ethic they followed to make bank. Of course, I know how guests and basics can be at times.

This someone after all these years said why not become a premium there and at least compensate their friend(s) for their time and kindness and patience.

This person would only tip them and nothing more.

Yet when they did buy tokens they became a premium member there with real tokens to use. But something was amiss. They could not tip if they wanted to nor use any premium feature on that website.

When this person, tried to log back in they continually were told that the new account they had just created had an incorrect password or username. This person had previously created a basic account years ago but never ever became a premium member nor tipped or were able to go private or anything that could create a business exchange there.

When they tried numerous times to find the problem they decided to write MFC's exceptional customer support.(sarcasm)

Stating the honest legitimate problem to customer support, this new customer was having. Customer support then informed this new paying customer that they previously caused a chargeback under a previously created basic member account nickname. What a load of bullshit and outright lies.

When this person then asked for proof or to show any records of this ever occurring,they never got a reply back. Now how could a basic member who could not purchase tokens cause a chargeback or pay for anything?

This new customer then replied back with this logic again on deaf ears. Oh yes, Leo and his cronies also banned this person from that website. How is that for fair business practices? Try telling this persons bank the specifics regarding this debit transaction on a porn site,to obtain a refund or stop the transaction, lol. You want equality in the world of porn and fairness, look at it from another POV here.

More than likely MFC's shoddy record keeping,lack of control of their website activities,lack of any safety and secure business practices which are non-existent to protect you women,that border on fraud and criminality, is to blame. I presume someone hacked or appropriated that username to cause that chargeback and an innocent new customer was judged and sentenced by the powers that be that MFC employs and hires as their customer support representatives.

Way to go Leo!!! You are a fine example as to why Bambalina here, wants to use your ass and practice her tools of her trade on it.

So much for customer support and the customer being treated fairly and properly.

I have also learned that not only does MFC steal tokens or purchases from customers but also from the models as well. Not to mention that a friend of mine told me that not only does MFC conduct such activities but other websites as well,towards their employees the models. Now to me, that is criminal and they are breaking the law. In that case and any other, I will support you in that respect.

Btw- I have seen MFC's business model move to pxxxxxxws as well. I have watched another website that recently incorporated the tipping feature where more and more, the members are requesting for shows in free for tips.

You all can be free to do what you feel provides you with a sense of empowerment and free choice, but the powers that be reflect the overall reality of the real world in the land of fantasy and erotica as well.

And so it goes.

P.S.- I forgot to reply to this:

QUOTE
How many of you have written to Leo from MFC asking him why he is ruining camming and demanding he take MFC back to a place where it is much less exploitative to women and much more monetarily fair for everyone involved?

How many have written MFC itself asking for a return to the RULES?

How many of you have spent a day taking screen shots and reporting models who blatantly break the rules and hurt the women and business of camming?

How many of you have opened up FAIR websites that treat women right and make camming what it SHOULD be!?

How many of you have made yourself vulnerable and available not as lecturing father figures, but as friends, and even HELPERS (yes, a submissive position) to camgirls who are doing things and changing ideas?

How many of you...have done what is necessary to convince the overall cam-model community that you are really their FRIENDS?

Because THAT my friends, is where you fail worst.

B

PS. "We sit around and TALK, and verbally masturbate about the intelletuality and superior moral stance, and Marxist rightness..." is a SERIOUSLY un-acceptable answer.


Well what do I do, more than you can ever imagine. Friends? What is your definition of a friend if I might ask?

There is a long thread here about that very topic with respect of friendship within the confines of the fantasy work you conduct.

You statements above border on assumptions and incorrect judgements.

Where you fail now, is that you are viewing and comparing and judging others here, that being a friend is only true and real when it fits your own description of the word. An ex-moderator and some other cam models here, state emphatically that friendship and this work should never be mixed and result in bad outcomes. They said and I quote, if you are looking for real friendship in the camworld you are fodder. So now I must hear a different conflicting opposing view of things from a model? Hmmmm.... someone is not being upfront here.

Talk about some mind fuck now...what a game some are playing it appears,huh. Get your act together people.

Please do not get me started on concern or friendship here.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#13 [url]

Aug 21 11 6:05 PM

QUOTE (bambalina @ August 21, 2011 04:14 pm)
Intelligently thought out Blogs....

Blog about how the anti-porn movement is a fricking racket based on absolute moralism and censorship. Blog about a woman's right to do with her body as she sees fit. About how these same friggin' feminists will stand on a picket line to keep abortion legal in the US, but will then talk about helping women out of porn against their will. Oh well, your body isn't yours where PORN is concerned because THAT'S EEEEEEEVIL!

Mostly blog about how EROTICA could be done right. How women's beauty and sexuality is a FINE subject for viewing and enjoying, and how it isn't the whole concept of sexuality being business that is wrong, but the way it is expressed and who owns it and all that.


Blogs are the present way of communicating and getting your words on the internet...they are posterity and they are our newest form of journalism and News.

We can also gather all the sex positive we can find on the internet. Stuff that actually fulfills a sexually postive, sexually mature attitude and make a repository for it.

How about forming a MEN's GROUP that has a home-page (with links and a board or two here) that is about men for ethical, female based, erotica. Men for EMPOWERMENT instead of objectification.

You have THIS forum to help you leapfrog these ideas into reality and help them gain traction....

There's a billion free Blogs out there, and lots of free website spots. Or sheesh...at worse a domain is $4.99 and hosting as about $4 a month.

Let's CHANGE the entire porn industry into an erotic womanderland of lovely happy non-coerced beauties...

B

first off......kudos
your voice on this forum is a positive...for me the educational equivalent of those whose focus is on the videochat business and it's relationships to the more exploitative aspects of the globalized sex industry
it strikes me that the polarization of viewpoints i'm starting to see here is nothing more than the polarization of perception that is unavoidable whenever you try and turn personal experience into an analysis of trends......there is always truth on both sides of the fence.

i'm sure both sides will take issue with that statement

but what the open and honest discussion between members and models on this forum has done is to get me to ask myself WHY i tip on MFC (i've spent time on some of the others....i call 'em glass booth sites and sit sometimes with friends on those sites, grumbling to myself about "sociological issues" that come to mind to me there....but this post is limited to what i DO consider to a real community feeling at MFC.....like all communities....it's sure not utopia

and aside of my love for and admiration of a few models who i consider supremely erotic and sensual in their personas there.....

i tip models who i have hung out with long enough....talked to long enough....to have come to know...a few women who. for better or for worse, have come to trust me a little, and have told me enough about themselves with enough consistency and depth to where the trust is returned.

and i call them friends for that....and sure....there is a sexual component that runs through all of this...but there is another, equally intriguing one to me, too

and it's their struggle with what is very truely empowering for them...economic self-sufficiency....and the sometimes brutal self-deprecating suffering that slow days, and/or room fulls of jerks, will bring down on them
they are all individuals, so their stories are unique....but the one thread common in their struggles is "camscore envy" with the top models....they envy the money and the marketing prowess, they are (with one exception) both tempted and repulsed by the perception that "free shows" are somehow the key to more success, and their self worth as a woman becomes slowly more dependent on the treatment they receive from a bunch of random guys looking for...all the different things that the guys are looking for on mfc.

that's my perception, anyway...they are there as students....or because they were students, and couldn't find work in their field, and can -at best- begrudgingly admit that they are sex workers......they have no desire to embrace the business and yet find themselves slowly embracing it out necessity.

my point being that the concept of empowerment, as a positive experience, is not easily defined by or linked to the self sufficiency of economic earnings....for some models, it is certainly as simple as creating yourself as a successful persona in videochat.....for plenty of others, it is finding yourself as a woman in the maelstrom of conflicts that is videochat for them....it is just as naive to imagine that there are no emotional dangers for some of these women, as to think that anyone but themselves can rescue them from those dangers.

i don't tip to save them....i tip because i can not walk away.

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#14 [url]

Aug 21 11 6:19 PM

QUOTE
i don't tip to save them....i tip because i can not walk away.


Have you asked yourself why you can not walk away?

QUOTE
and it's their struggle with what is very truely empowering for them...economic self-sufficiency....and the sometimes brutal self-deprecating suffering that slow days, and/or room fulls of jerks, will bring down on them
they are all individuals, so their stories are unique....but the one thread common in their struggles is "camscore envy" with the top models....they envy the money and the marketing prowess, they are (with one exception) both tempted and repulsed by the perception that "free shows" are somehow the key to more success, and their self worth as a woman becomes slowly more dependent on the treatment they receive from a bunch of random guys looking for...all the different things that the guys are looking for on mfc.

that's my perception, anyway...they are there as students....or because they were students, and couldn't find work in their field, and can -at best- begrudgingly admit that they are sex workers......they have no desire to embrace the business and yet find themselves slowly embracing it out necessity.

my point being that the concept of empowerment, as a positive experience, is not easily defined by or linked to the self sufficiency of economic earnings....for some models, it is certainly as simple as creating yourself as a successful persona in videochat.....for plenty of others, it is finding yourself as a woman in the maelstrom of conflicts that is videochat for them....it is just as naive to imagine that there are no emotional dangers for some of these women, as to think that anyone but themselves can rescue them from those dangers


The bold highlighted part... did you deduce that all on your own? Many a model would argue that point with you.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#15 [url]

Aug 21 11 6:25 PM

QUOTE (TRAINER @ August 21, 2011 06:19 pm)
QUOTE
i don't tip to save them....i tip because i can not walk away.


Have you asked yourself why you can not walk away?

QUOTE
and it's their struggle with what is very truely empowering for them...economic self-sufficiency....and the sometimes brutal self-deprecating suffering that slow days, and/or room fulls of jerks, will bring down on them
they are all individuals, so their stories are unique....but the one thread common in their struggles is "camscore envy" with the top models....they envy the money and the marketing prowess, they are (with one exception) both tempted and repulsed by the perception that "free shows" are somehow the key to more success, and their self worth as a woman becomes slowly more dependent on the treatment they receive from a bunch of random guys looking for...all the different things that the guys are looking for on mfc.

that's my perception, anyway...they are there as students....or because they were students, and couldn't find work in their field, and can -at best- begrudgingly admit that they are sex workers......they have no desire to embrace the business and yet find themselves slowly embracing it out necessity.

my point being that the concept of empowerment, as a positive experience, is not easily defined by or linked to the self sufficiency of economic earnings....for some models, it is certainly as simple as creating yourself as a successful persona in videochat.....for plenty of others, it is finding yourself as a woman in the maelstrom of conflicts that is videochat for them....it is just as naive to imagine that there are no emotional dangers for some of these women, as to think that anyone but themselves can rescue them from those dangers


The bold highlighted part... did you deduce that all on your own? Many a model would argue that point with you.



i expected both of these from you trainer
yeah...i don't walk away because these three women are my friends......would if be ok if i stayed if i was a woman?

and no....not on my own....
but you're absolutely right....there ARE plenty of models who would disagree with the statement you highlighted.....i'm sure there are others who would agree

remember....these are just my personal experiences.....not a stab at some absolute truth...just a little one i have found.....
to be true.

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#16 [url]

Aug 21 11 10:09 PM

What difference would it make if you were a woman, iltos? None to me at all.

Lol.... I know you expected me to ask such questions.

So you have friends there,huh.

Some others would say that you should not attempt to become or expect to have any friendships between a model and their customers.

Which then again highlights other debates here as to how pro or con people can be in that regard.



Hey Bambalina, you really need captures proving the disregard by Leo's employees or subcontractors(models) who break the rules? Or where MFC's rules are nothing but empty wikipedia entries that any person can post and not follow.

Oh the pirates do that as well, with not following their own rules on their own forum(go figure).

Seriously, I have plenty of proof to supply you with,while a cam model friend and I used to exchange screen caps of the goings on their on his website.

PM, me and I will give you enough evidence that you can continue your crusade for fair, equal empowerment and non exploitative use of a woman who may or may not be objectified in peoples eyes.

Or PM Uncle here and I will pass them along to him and then he can forward them to you.

One last thing here...and then I will crawl back under my rock.

QUOTE
How many of you have made yourself vulnerable and available not as lecturing father figures, but as friends, and even HELPERS (yes, a submissive position) to camgirls who are doing things and changing ideas?

How many of you...have done what is necessary to convince the overall cam-model community that you are really their FRIENDS?


Been there done that. It appears some of your colleagues use that type of friendship in other ways. I won't elaborate further. Once again it works boths ways and is a two way street.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#17 [url]

Aug 21 11 10:26 PM

cool.gif Thanks Bambalina..good suggestions.. But please note that we have posted some ideas about what 'ethical sex consumers.." might do - even if the very idea of an ethical consumer who pays for another person's sexual performances "on command" is something of a contradictory notion..

But not entirely : Look here for instance for some evidence that we not that far apart...
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=3044

And kudos to Trainer and Iltos for an interesting exchange.
UL
--------------------
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"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#18 [url]

Aug 22 11 12:06 AM

yeah trainier....my conclusion is just that the experience is what you make it......

and i've learned.....continue learning.....from you....from models.....from sites like this....from my own heart

i'm the first one to say "yeah...it's the land of illusion....go with it or run....as fast as you can.....unless you enjoy the game"

and i'm the one holding the door open for those that leave....and i still step in and close the door behind me

but that's just me.....and i've always been an outsider....and a stubborn cuss

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#19 [url]

Aug 22 11 1:59 PM

QUOTE (TRAINER @ August 21, 2011 10:09 pm)
What difference would it make if you were a woman, iltos? None to me at all.

Lol.... I know you expected me to ask such questions.

So you have friends there,huh.

Some others would say that you should not attempt to become or expect to have any friendships between a model and their customers.

Which then again highlights other debates here as to how pro or con people can be in that regard.



Hey Bambalina, you really need captures proving the disregard by Leo's employees or subcontractors(models) who break the rules? Or where MFC's rules are nothing but empty wikipedia entries that any person can post and not follow.

Oh the pirates do that as well, with not following their own rules on their own forum(go figure).

Seriously, I have plenty of proof to supply you with,while a cam model friend and I used to exchange screen caps of the goings on their on his website.

PM, me and I will give you enough evidence that you can continue your crusade for fair, equal empowerment and non exploitative use of a woman who may or may not be objectified in peoples eyes.

Or PM Uncle here and I will pass them along to him and then he can forward them to you.

One last thing here...and then I will crawl back under my rock.

QUOTE
How many of you have made yourself vulnerable and available not as lecturing father figures, but as friends, and even HELPERS (yes, a submissive position) to camgirls who are doing things and changing ideas?

How many of you...have done what is necessary to convince the overall cam-model community that you are really their FRIENDS?


Been there done that. It appears some of your colleagues use that type of friendship in other ways. I won't elaborate further. Once again it works boths ways and is a two way street.

Ching Ching...

The reverse side also has a reverse side

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avatar

bambalina

Very Talkative

Posts: 45

#20 [url]

Aug 22 11 8:16 PM

The point here is a complete thinking outside the box. It is almost impossible to share two-way meaningful friendships with models the way camsites and the adult industry are set up today. I even grant that.

But I wish one of you could go to a Neo-Burlesque performance and see how when women run the show, generally it's about camaraderie, entertainment, joy and sharing of friendship...oft times the cast goes out to Denny's or whatever afterward and many audience members come and coffee and friendship is shared...

Try that at a male run strip club....

I believe you guys cannot even envision what a world where women ran the adult industry would look like...because you are forced to do a jump...a paradigm shift that is too drastic.

Sure women in adult can be empowered now and make a choice to be in it now...but the choice is to make little money in Indy, or work for a bigbox site under those terms and that atmosphere. Not much choice really...

So think...just as men are mostly sheep, and follow the herd like good little sheeple, the women who are involved in adult do the same, and they adapt to whatever crap is available, because it's MUCH better crap than "Walmart Check-out Girl" or McDonalds Employee, or even Secretary. They stay home and make triple the money. But this is what the bigbox sites rely on. That women will be satisfied making triple or more money than a regular job, and not question too much how fucking shitty the bad parts are.

How often nowadays do we hear "At least he has a job!" About some person who is paid too little to even feed his family and pay rent? So our society has taught us that be "Leonardo"s is not the way, and to be robots is better, and to be glad for "bad" because at least it isn't "WORST".

But the whole thing CAN be re-invented and fairly easily. Just need to crack the nut and figure out how to get women to actually take control....

B

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