#21 [url]

Aug 22 11 10:10 PM

QUOTE (bambalina @ August 22, 2011 08:16 pm)
The point here is a complete thinking outside the box. It is almost impossible to share two-way meaningful friendships with models the way camsites and the adult industry are set up today. I even grant that.

But I wish one of you could go to a Neo-Burlesque performance and see how when women run the show, generally it's about camaraderie, entertainment, joy and sharing of friendship...oft times the cast goes out to Denny's or whatever afterward and many audience members come and coffee and friendship is shared...

Try that at a male run strip club....

I believe you guys cannot even envision what a world where women ran the adult industry would look like...because you are forced to do a jump...a paradigm shift that is too drastic.

Sure women in adult can be empowered now and make a choice to be in it now...but the choice is to make little money in Indy, or work for a bigbox site under those terms and that atmosphere. Not much choice really...

So think...just as men are mostly sheep, and follow the herd like good little sheeple, the women who are involved in adult do the same, and they adapt to whatever crap is available, because it's MUCH better crap than "Walmart Check-out Girl" or McDonalds Employee, or even Secretary. They stay home and make triple the money. But this is what the bigbox sites rely on. That women will be satisfied making triple or more money than a regular job, and not question too much how fucking shitty the bad parts are.

How often nowadays do we hear "At least he has a job!" About some person who is paid too little to even feed his family and pay rent? So our society has taught us that be "Leonardo"s is not the way, and to be robots is better, and to be glad for "bad" because at least it isn't "WORST".

But the whole thing CAN be re-invented and fairly easily. Just need to crack the nut and figure out how to get women to actually take control....

B

Bollacks................

i went 2 2 diffrent strip clubs in the last 168 hrs.................

both owned by men...............

the first club was all ok!!


the second club i visted later in tjhe evening was still owned by men
but with a frount house run by wemon............ and becaue it was late in tje evening..... the Man instructed the woman at the door to charge me only # 10,00 ............... coz it was late............. onl,y 39 minutes to close........

Many strippers aproched me ....... hussling for a dance..................

said i had alread had a lap dance down the road..............

This hot chick..... Oh yeah ! ..... VERY YUMMY.. jumped on me ..... think . Mila Klunes, with AngelJolie boobs and tight ass.... and for males reading.. rate her an 12... thats before any beer.......Long story short......

asked her what exprince she had .... well boys and girls.......... she used to work at the Hell Fire Club ........ in melbourne........ its a kinda naughty place if u think wearing leatbher and pony play is just 4 cowboys.....

Cool... a very Hot chick takes my had and willing drangs me to the rooms up stairs......... We had already negotated the price of AU$180.00 for 30 minuts....... Hey !! she was drop Dead Hottness......... thats the price anyway att he other club.. .. so ........ when we get to top of stairs......... The Woman( who must be about 60+ says i have to pay an extra $50 to enter the Room.. so........... Guess what happen Next?........ .. the Totaly Hot Chick.. very fuckable.. gets no money ........ even though she is a pro stripper ... and had experience from the Hell Fire Club in Melbourne....... the old hag of a woman said ever man has to pay her........ well male ego.. said Fuck u ....... miss Hotness , said she would pay.. and slaped the old woman inthe mouth...... then security had a song and dance........ i tiped the bar girl $ 200.00 Au..... . then the male mangement was so appoligetic.......

Drama......... The First club was all oky dokie...........

Mostly in Autralia the culbs have connections to bike groupe........ the girls who dance and offer other services..............

/

The reverse side also has a reverse side

Quote    Reply   

#22 [url]

Aug 22 11 11:40 PM

Bambalina, so basically you want to re-invent the way a cam model presents themselves to their custies.

To bring back the entertainment, fun, jovial atmosphere and a sensation of naughty teasing that makes a customer have so much fun that they love to be in her chat room.

As opposed to the "Come in private baby"... or "Come into my private you cheap beggar" method. Perhaps along the lines of less is more in free chat, and to really have some fun in a private session, instead of a group mentality of horny wolves ready for the attack mentality.

I am old enough to remember watching burlesk shows. I also have visited Las Vegas and seen a few of those titillating nude revue type of extravaganza productions as well.

Perhaps a poll or survey of some members here, both models and non models would give you a feel or consensus if that is what they want to see or experience or if a model wishes to incorporate into her persona.

I wonder how many studio models would go to such lengths when their bosses are hounding them about attaining their monthly quotas.

I am sure it is possible for indie models to try this but for the eastern europeans and asians I believe they would have a hard time adapting their styles.

I guess there is a niche for everything these days.

QUOTE
The point here is a complete thinking outside the box. It is almost impossible to share two-way meaningful friendships with models the way camsites and the adult industry are set up today. I even grant that.


I highlighted that because honestly, if it is just an act, shame on you. If you mean it sincerely, then tell a member on sw(whom used to be a moderator here) that, and have a chat with some models here as well.

Friendship based upon what if I may ask again?

It appears you are looking for those truly lonely members who need to fill a void in their lives who have loads of cash.

Have you ever asked your friend to pay to hang out with you?

Once again honestly, I don't find any value in a friendship that is based upon paying to become someones friend,especially in the environment of a models work environment.
To me it is just a false sense of friendship and yes I am friends with models away from their work. I had many a model say they are my friend in their work environment and in reality. Perhaps, they just have a different description of friendship compared to mine.

Reiterating again, "Would you ask your friends to pay to chat, see you naked and masturbate in reality?


Facile... Did you post again after you were out causing a ruckus looking for stress relief?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   

#23 [url]

Aug 23 11 1:10 AM

QUOTE (bambalina @ August 22, 2011 08:16 pm)
I believe you guys cannot even envision what a world where women ran the adult industry would look like...because you are forced to do a jump...a paradigm shift that is too drastic.

But the whole thing CAN be re-invented and fairly easily. Just need to crack the nut and figure out how to get women to actually take control....

B

it is to me unfortunate, but i think there is a flaw in the arguement....if the paradigm shift is really all that drastic for the majority of guys currently particpating in video chat, to won't be all that easy to reinvent it...if the goal is to turn a profit.

but i do believe it could begin as a viable videochat niche...it already exists at mfc imo

there is a group of very sensual models there, who are personable and fun and enjoy talking with the guys as much as much as teasing them....some do a show in private and some don't.....some are successful and some aren't.....the group i've found is small (for a small fee, you can have access to my friend's list ).....but there is a satellite group that have all the right stuff, but suffer from a different training

and there's a group of guys that gravitate towards these women

i've got nothing against any model who can market herself successfully, and i think the struggle to stay competitive (or at least hold on to room numbers) has yielded some pretty creative variations on the whole white board thing

and there are guys who seem to enjoy that too

but there's' nothing quite like a woman with the instincts (practiced or not) to sell herself everyday, raw and uncut....not sure we'd see eye to eye on the particulars, B.......but i think we're sitting at the same table.

the another significant difference i think (which is just another consideration) between the burlesque that you mentioned and the format of videochat is the sense of comraderie you would hope to achieve....the differences in interactivity between something live and mobile and something virtual remains huge.

part of white knightism (to keep this on topic) is simple a result of our wanting a place for the rest of our senses to play.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

bambalina

Very Talkative

Posts: 45

#24 [url]

Aug 23 11 2:44 AM

Ok, first off, as far as friendship goes...can you be friends with a waitress and still tip her when you eat at her restaurant? Every service person I have ever been friends with, when I see them at work, I tip them WELL.

Next, think Cheers here....the show...you tip the watress, you tip the bartender and you spend money to buy drinks and a burger and keep the joint running, and to think those people aren;t FRIENDS just because they are in business as well, is ludicrous,

Money does not have to spoil friendship and there are limited friendships as well. I am VERY friendly with the lady who waitresses at Golden Corral and we always talk for a long time and share tips about getting DisneyWorld cheap and so on, but she has never been to my house and the thought of intruding into her personal life is not on top of my list. I believe you guys (some of you anyway) have some real problems with the fact that someone can be a "fantasy girl" , yet thoroughly enjoy your company, conversation, and yes, friendship while she works, and as long as you respect that and the fact that this business, the fantasy requires some concessions to reality...I'm not really named Bambalina on my birth certificate, I'm not really 21 for 4 years in a row, I'm not really single for those 4 years either...If you get to know me well enough, little bits of the unreality fall away...and you know, just as often as girls disillusion YOU...Men disillusion US...we let them in and when they realize we have a guy, a kid, and are 5 years older than they first thought, they are suddenly in BuffyBazooms room down the hall and spending WAY less on us, which teaches us NOT to let you in...

THAT is the paradigm I'm talking about changing...

B

Quote    Reply   

#25 [url]

Aug 23 11 4:25 PM

QUOTE (bambalina @ August 23, 2011 02:44 am)
Ok, first off, as far as friendship goes...can you be friends with a waitress and still tip her when you eat at her restaurant? Every service person I have ever been friends with, when I see them at work, I tip them WELL.

Next, think Cheers here....the show...you tip the watress, you tip the bartender and you spend money to buy drinks and a burger and keep the joint running, and to think those people aren;t FRIENDS just because they are in business as well, is ludicrous,

Money does not have to spoil friendship and there are limited friendships as well. I am VERY friendly with the lady who waitresses at Golden Corral and we always talk for a long time and share tips about getting DisneyWorld cheap and so on, but she has never been to my house and the thought of intruding into her personal life is not on top of my list. I believe you guys (some of you anyway) have some real problems with the fact that someone can be a "fantasy girl" , yet thoroughly enjoy your company, conversation, and yes, friendship while she works, and as long as you respect that and the fact that this business, the fantasy requires some concessions to reality...I'm not really named Bambalina on my birth certificate, I'm not really 21 for 4 years in a row, I'm not really single for those 4 years either...If you get to know me well enough, little bits of the unreality fall away...and you know, just as often as girls disillusion YOU...Men disillusion US...we let them in and when they realize we have a guy, a kid, and are 5 years older than they first thought, they are suddenly in BuffyBazooms room down the hall and spending WAY less on us, which teaches us NOT to let you in...

THAT is the paradigm I'm talking about changing...

B

maybe my use of language is too casual....but this all falls under "personable" to me, and is a function more of a particular model and some particular (peculiar?) set of guys......who -whether they know it or not- like the "cheers" script

there will always be...on any site....other people in the cheers bar...the lonely hearts, the gawkers, the guys with the pickup lines just looking for a little nameless action

there's not a business model in the world that can change that...there is the occasional person tho, that offers up something personable

but everything you've said continues to "feel" right to me personally....if i get bored on a site and start "browsing" models, i visit one sometimes who brings out my desire to rescue her....even without know anything about her, i just "see" a woman following a script not her own....whether its driven by a male dominated industry or a woman studio boss, i can't say, and i don't know how much it matters

Quote    Reply   

#26 [url]

Sep 19 11 11:47 PM

Very interesting topic. I will find myself holding back all my comments as some will flood out and be taken negatively although they are the truth. I revisit the questions.... What or who is a white knight and what "can" we do for the models.

I consider myself a white knight. I have been involved in the past and even so now in "rescuing" several models that could NOT get out of the industry on there own. I have been in Bucharest multiple times and have spent hours and thousands of dollars in helping these girls who were wanting out of the industry. Currently of the 6 I have helped all but one has been able to leave the cam industry in the dust and have gone to school and now have excellent carreers now. Can the average "freind" of a cam-model help in this manner ? No... not likely. I however, along with a network of "White Knights" were able to make things happen for these X-models. I have even gone as far to helping these girls/women that needed it that it put me jeopardy of legal issues which came down on me.
I still took care of what had to be done.
One does not have to look far to find and realize who the White knights are, and what they can do to truly help someone that needs it. The key is.... you have to want out. There is no... make the industry better. No one can make the industry better. Its a festering pit of destruction. The idea of having the industry "better for models" is a dream that will never happen in the life of this planet. Human kind wont let it happen.

-Khnum

Few will ever know what solitude really is.


Its good to HATE. Without it you couldnt cherish love.

Quote    Reply   

#27 [url]

Sep 20 11 12:34 AM

Welcome back, Khnum.

QUOTE
One does not have to look far to find and realize who the White knights are, and what they can do to truly help someone that needs it. The key is.... you have to want out. There is no... make the industry better. No one can make the industry better. Its a festering pit of destruction. The idea of having the industry "better for models" is a dream that will never happen in the life of this planet. Human kind wont let it happen.


Some have a dream of paradise Khnum.

Bambalina, have you or any of your colleagues stopped to think that not all the women in this work want to be in it?

Sure they made the choice, but it was a last choice, for quite a few. Do you realize how many have told me how much they dislike their lives and the way of life in their countries? How many have told me that they fucking hate men and they hate this work? How about the white knights who kill themselves until they are broke themselves to help a woman they care about, who hates this work? Let's cover all the possibilities,shall we?

So here we are, camming, the save all work,huh. And the regular 9-5 work for less pay is to be frowned upon. If not for the immigrants in the USA most Americans would be starving to death, because it is beneath them to work in the fields for low pay, but many foreigners would do it in a heartbeat.

Just like people who say they hate their low wage paying jobs with their shitty prick bosses that they felt was getting them no where and are fed up. Or even higher up on the corporate ladder,where people are treated like shit, and some of you just want to run away and be free and independent. Yeah yeah, there you go, you have that choice or the job of camming.

Hmmm.... now think of that woman thousands of miles away from you, where that minimum fucking shit job, many complain so much about is like a dream for others. My,my,my, how things can be viewed from a different perspective.

Hmmm.. I know a friend of mine, who actually went out of their way to create job(s) for someone who said they want out and then got their ass fucked over.

The choices we all make,huh.

I won't go any further but for many this job is not their choice of first or second employment,perhaps it is the lack of choice that some do enter it, and after awhile it does change them for a long time or forever. Think of those that have no option, and don't want to become fodder like the rest.

To quote, Khnum, again, "they have to want out" add before it is too late for some as well.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   
avatar

bambalina

Very Talkative

Posts: 45

#28 [url]

Sep 28 11 6:36 AM

First off, I am no longer welcome in ANY form on StripperWeb. Even my thoughts have been banned.

QUOTE
Bambalina was banned, specially banned, which means she is no longer welcome here. That includes her ideas and any members speaking for her


So no more me on SW.

It's interesting how the more I got controversial the more people attacked and harassed me, and the more blame I took for their harassment.

The owners of SW are clearly part of the Boys Club and do not want the status quo altered.

My IDEAS are banned there. How is that for Censorship?

B

Quote    Reply   

#29 [url]

Sep 28 11 10:19 AM

Bambalina, we took note of the Mods decision to ban your criticism of the industry and your ideas for model collective organization on SW.. The lines of attack were familiar. This is how they dealt with us or anyone who sounds a critical downbeat note about the VideoChat Industry. The people who are dismissed by them not as "WhiteKnights" but as "Trolls". I think they couldn't tolerate the issues that you raised and your direct criticism of the bigger web-sites with whom they work..ie. LJ, MFC, and SM.

Look here in Sexual Tourism, "How Do Models Handle Criticism" for our comment on their decision to censor you. and the issue of censorship in general on SW..
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...st=0#entry20158

I am sorry that it happened to you, but in the end, not all that surprised.

Of course, you, your comments; your ideas, and any members speaking for your ideas, are more than welcome to post them HERE. After all, we are NOT a professional forum that must cater to the men who control this industry and who profit from womens' sexual labor.

UL
--------------------
Click here to view the attachment

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

nurgg03

Very Talkative

Posts: 69

#30 [url]

Sep 28 11 6:19 PM

I sent $200 to a Romanian model. She didn't have PayPal and I couldn't do a direct transfer, so I sent it by mail She claims never to have received it. Perhaps she did - perhaps she didn't. Either way, I'm out $200 and to be honest, I sent it despite feeling I was being scammed from the word go.

This industry seems to me to be more corrupt, more morally twisted and more perverse than porn. In porn, the deal is clear: you screw for money. In camming, both sides get bogged down in a moral swamp of one kind or another.

George

Quote    Reply   
avatar

bambalina

Very Talkative

Posts: 45

#31 [url]

Sep 29 11 12:27 AM

QUOTE (TRAINER @ September 20, 2011 12:34 am)
Welcome back, Khnum.

QUOTE
One does not have to look far to find and realize who the White knights are, and what they can do to truly help someone that needs it. The key is.... you have to want out. There is no... make the industry better. No one can make the industry better. Its a festering pit of destruction. The idea of having the industry "better for models" is a dream that will never happen in the life of this planet. Human kind wont let it happen.


Some have a dream of paradise Khnum.


Well, lets get down to it, shall we?

There is so much "wrong" with just the stuff above as to leave me almost babbling...Everything is fine until we get to the sentence from Khnum which says there is no making the industry better.

It is just well and truly false that you cannot make it better. Every Independent Camgirl site that has opened here in US (some problems in other areas such as security and IDs and such notwithstanding) HAS made it better for MANY models all over the world. And radical plans like a collective camsite and other such plans that can come to fruition, can RADICALLY alter the way "camming" happens, and how it exists in the lives of those who do it everywhere in the world. Having people who TRULY care about models OWN the means of production AND Distribution will allow for controlling how that happens. Right now, those who care the most for models and their plight, are in the least control. And I will accept that this is TWO groups...customers and a models...and those in sole control are the ones who CREATED a system of slavery and robbery of dignity.

So to say that there is no such thing as improvement is not only outright WRONG, but irrelevant to any meaningful discussions. Because it then leaves us open to the created "fact" (the only real conclusion left) that nothing can be done, except POSSIBLY saving these women individually...Which might fit into padding your ego, and making you feel like you've done your bit...But in essence, saving one, and leaving the corrupt system in place has just created a tiny vacuum where the one you saved was, that will soon be filled with a new horrifed young lady who doesn;t want to be there...So in essence you directly caused another woman to be brought in to fill her place... Don't get me wrong...I accept you saved Girl A and that IS admirable in a sense, on the personal level, but your "white knightism" in terms of reality is a zero sum game.

So to say it can never happen, when it does and has many times in many industries is to ignore reality. And we do so only at our own peril.

Now to get to your (loaded) questions Trainer...

QUOTE
Bambalina, have you or any of your colleagues stopped to think that not all the women in this work want to be in it?


Firstly, I think it is fair of me and not to bitchy to ask you to please stop doing that..Lumping in with "my colleagues" as if my ideas and Roast's are the same...as if I do not have original thought and the ability to speak for myself or possibly come up with an innovative idea which solely can change the entire game...Read your posts to me in the past...It is NOT the first time you have allowed yourself to go off and run with your ideas based on what OTHER cam-models might have said or done, but aimed at me, because I represent "Them" to you...I represent me, and those who agree that it is time for a radical shift in camming...there may be like 10 of us active in the world at this time...So to answer you question, Me and the 10 other radical women out there who want to change the entire industry for the benefit of cam-models worldwide HAVE thought about the fact that not all cam-models want to be cam-models. And we'd love to change the model of the world where they must do what they do not want to do. Will we? Who knows, but we CAN make it incrementally better in nice large chunks if our plans succeed.

QUOTE

Sure they made the choice, but it was a last choice, for quite a few. Do you realize how many have told me how much they dislike their lives and the way of life in their countries? How many have told me that they fucking hate men and they hate this work?


Once again this isn't CAMMING. This is third world economics. This is children working 14 hours a day in factories to make Nike shoes...Women in China and Korea sewing garments for 14+ hours per day till their fingers are bent and crooked and bleed? Where are THEIR damn White Knights?

Oh wait, they aren't beautiful nubile young women with pretty titties and winning smiles...So they aren't worth saving...Is that it?

I helped in the fight to get the Nike Sweatshops closed and the women who worked there re-located to better jobs, because it isn't about my sexual ego to save only pretty women working in porn....How bout you guys?

See, you want to set up a "fight" here, when there is none. Women, Children and yes, even men being enslaved to do labor they do not want to do, or being forced into "choosing" jobs which are the only other choice to starving is WRONG. It's a "Bad Thing"...Is that what you want to hear? I've never denied it. I have spent parts of my life fighting it on all levels, not just the sexual, and especially because many of these cam-models have it bad, but not AS BAD as a child in the Philippines forced to work heavy machinery for 18 hours a day. One of the jobs we eliminated with Unicef and Concordia, was a child of 7 made to crawl through the machinery on a press that was often 160 degrees, and if it activated while the child was inside, the child was killed, and the child we helped save was the 4th one in that position in recent memory, because the other 3 were "no longer with us". So I apologize if cam-models are sometimes a bit lower on the priority list for rescue.

I believe there is a better way to save them, and most of the others who are in these positions. And that is to re-organize the way many of these industries operate. But see, making shoes or operating press machinery is different and much harder to fix, because the means of production does NOT lie solely with one group who control the entire business and just don't realize it.

In other words, children crawling through a press or women sewing garments till they bleed and are crippled do not necessarily understand the business of "Shoe Making" or "Worldwide Garment Manufacture and Sales"...Where the women who create porn, and ESPECIALLY cam models,ARE THE PRODUCT. Therefor there really is no intrinsic need for Streamate and *MFC*s. They exist because a technically complex internet allowed them to come into existence to fill a need, which is now pretty much obsolete. Western cam models generally DO understand the ins and outs of the internet and the cam business. This includes getting traffic and putting up blogs and sites and such. Most of them don't realize they have many of the tools available to them to break free. Because the Status Quo says they should go on MFC or SM. It's a joke, because all the tools exist for a cam-industry completely free of the MEN who control it now. They are irrelevant, but no-one has clearly shown this to the cam-models and customers yet.

But let's be clear. What happens in third world countries as far as trafficking and slavery and "no-choice choices" is not a fair thing to bring into this, since it is almost every industry in those nations which is affected by the same things...it is a poverty mentality we are discussing, and not "Camming" per say.

So please stop acting as if I said "ALL Cam-models everywhere freely choose to be cam-models and the world is a happy place" I never said that, and if someone did, take it up with them...

QUOTE
How about the white knights who kill themselves until they are broke themselves to help a woman they care about, who hates this work?


What about them? They are dumb and ineffective. Open a cam-site that is better. Get 10 of you white knights together and make a non-profit camsite that is all about saving models. You would do more for more women, have more fun, and probably do less overall work.

Shit, support our Cooperative. We'll have a benefit at some point, and lets see how many white knights show up and make this happen...pfft...

QUOTE

Let's cover all the possibilities,shall we?


People do dumb ineffective things for all the right reasons pretty often Trainer. Look at the post by nurgg03 above me...clear case in point...That $200 would have helped the collective get closer to being able to buy the cam-site of it's dreams, which will only employ cam-models who WANT to be there. And we talk to them and make sure of it. But sending $200 to an anonymous model somewhere? We all know she didn't even probably GET the money, her BOSS did.

QUOTE

So here we are, camming, the save all work,huh. And the regular 9-5 work for less pay is to be frowned upon.


Where the F*ck do you come up with your ideas? I mean why aim this to me? I have never said any work is to be frowned upon, I believe EMPLOYMENT is to be frowned upon and we should embrace robots taking all the jobs and change our entire economy so employment becomes less and less relevant. Look up Bob Black Abolition of Work or click there.

I am one who believes less meaningless labor and more joy is GOOD. If you LOVE what you're doing, great. Don't stop for anything. But if you hate it, it better either pay phenomenally well, or you should re-think how you are living if at all possible.

Camming is not "save all work" and I don't know what makes put words in my mouth like this, but camming can be an enjoyable way to make a phenomenally good paychack and can very well be an extremely HONEST transaction when done right. Much like prostitution can be when perfect.

But camming is far from perfect, and that paradigm is because of the way camming has evolved and what it has become today. Go watch Streamate's COMMERCIAL...it is for a really sexy site which is about meeting women you want to date and get to know as girl-friends and sex partners...This wasn't made by CAM-MODELS...it was made by Streamate! I'm not supposed to put links to anything commercial here, so I will resist, but a quick search of streamate tv on youtube will make you sick...

It is exactly what YOU seem to be so harshly against....and rightly so.

QUOTE
If not for the immigrants in the USA  most Americans would be starving to death, because it is beneath them to work in the fields for low pay, but many foreigners would do it in a heartbeat.


You seem be excusing paying people low slave-like wages here and dissing Americans for demanding high pay for their precious and irreplaceable time? I don't get this...I find it disgusting a basketball player who is doing what he loves, will strike or quit because he isn't paid MILLIONS per year, while someone who works the fields for 14 hours a day till their hands are raw, 6 days a week can be paid minimum wage or less.... But I don;t attack the basketball player, I attack the people who pay a mexican laborer $3 an hour.

QUOTE

Just like people who say they hate their low wage paying jobs with their shitty prick bosses that they felt was getting them no where and are fed up. Or even higher up on the corporate ladder,where people are treated like shit, and some of you just want to run away and be free and independent. Yeah yeah, there you go, you have that choice  or the job of camming.


I don't even get this statement..if it IS a statement. I mean, it is two unrelated concepts you are trying to relate falsely. Camming is a job, and it's pretty hard work, and it is kind of fun if you have the right mindset, and it pays well if done correctly...What does this have to do with jobs in America? Or even in thrid world countries? I mean generally, if you close a studio that does trafficking and enslacves women, those women end up prostitutes with AIDS within a few years, or working in sweatshops. How did your white knightism help?

QUOTE

Hmmm.... now think of that woman thousands of miles away from you, where that minimum fucking shit job, many complain so much about is like a dream for others. My,my,my, how things can be viewed from a different perspective.


And now think of the 40 year old ugly woman who is toiling away within a mile of the comparably cushy cam studio, and her arthritic fingers are bleeding as he works for 14 CENTS an hour...and she would give ANYTHING to be pretty and able to make what a cam-model does.

My my my. how things CAN be viewed from a different perspective...

QUOTE
Hmmm.. I know a friend of mine, who actually went out of their way to create job(s) for someone who said they want out and then got their ass fucked over.


Feel sorry for them...they should have done a better job and more research...because they got f*cked over for a REASON.

QUOTE
The choices we all make,huh.


You're part of the problem, or part of the solution. But even more-so, you either represent intelligent action in changing the status quo, or you do things that band-aid or even hurt...

QUOTE

I won't go any further but  for many this job is not their choice of first or second employment,perhaps it is the lack of choice that some do enter it, and after awhile it does change them for a long time or forever. Think of those that have no option, and don't want to become fodder like the rest.


I have no problem with this. I AGREE with you. Those women are to be helped and they are to have better lives, and there is nothing you say which is falling on deaf ears...I do what I can to help NOW...But none of this has ANYTHING to do with what I am doing, and what I am doing can do nothing BUT help these women....So why come donw so intensely and with such rhetoric that I don;t even support?

Mellow out T...lets talk...

QUOTE
To quote, Khnum, again, "they have to want out" add before it is too late for some as well.


Fine, so help me help them....and all the other women who do this...We won;t save everyone, because this is something I cannot even touch...the economic status of third world nations and the labor policies thereof...sorry, I can help the cam industry be better worldwide, but I can't change how much Philippine is worth.

B

Quote    Reply   

#32 [url]

Sep 29 11 4:12 AM

QUOTE
Firstly, I think it is fair of me and not to bitchy to ask you to please stop doing that..Lumping in with "my colleagues" as if my ideas and Roast's are the same...as if I do not have original thought and the ability to speak for myself or possibly come up with an innovative idea which solely can change the entire game...Read your posts to me in the past...It is NOT the first time you have allowed yourself to go off and run with your ideas based on what OTHER cam-models might have said or done, but aimed at me, because I represent "Them" to you...I represent me, and those who agree that it is time for a radical shift in camming...there may be like 10 of us active in the world at this time...So to answer you question, Me and the 10 other radical women out there who want to change the entire industry for the benefit of cam-models worldwide HAVE thought about the fact that not all cam-models want to be cam-models. And we'd love to change the model of the world where they must do what they do not want to do. Will we? Who knows, but we CAN make it incrementally better in nice large chunks if our plans succeed.


Ok, first of all, I happen to agree with most of the quote above. I want the conditions to get better there. From the web pimps like Leo to the scum of the Earth that find their way into the online data stream that is camming. I also point out as well, the people who knowingly take advantage of others, creating such fodder that it borders on praying on the weaknesses of both parties involved. All the so called innocents who just want to survive in a ethical and honest manner so to speak.

I will mention here again, that I am not worrying as much for western cam models from the USA,Canada and other western European locations.To begin with the majority of them in comparison, have more opportunity and more of a governmental provided aid system that is set up to help those in need. But then that is changing in many more developed countries. So if I may use you as an example, and I presume you are from a wealthier more prosperous country,that have more assistance programs to help those who do lose their footing economically and socially.

I am not lumping you into a convenient generalization, because I am speaking of the thousands who are less disadvantaged and find it much harder to survive period in comparison to many western societies. Do you know what the median monthly salary is for a romanian person who would be considered a manager or supervisor in lets say the USA? $200.00 dollars a month. And guess how much people pay for rent in Romania per month. The same amount. Now where do these people(men and women) earn enough to buy food, or afford an education, and many other things that are affordable in the USA? Do you even know about the health care system in Romania? I do, because I know if you are dirt poor you are more likely to die than survive in a hospital there, unless you pay bribes or are connected with someone.

Now to go out and now speak about what some of you say, that I am blind or uneducated about things or that I have no compassion or empathy is incorrect. Because I actually saved someones life in Romania, and no, it was not a cam model. That is all I will reveal here because to say more would just become less humble and disgusting.

If you bothered to actually read with a calm and logical less emotional and less fanatical mentality, you would have read somewhere that I helped a woman return to university to continue their education.

Shall I continue being your definition of a white knight or just being a concerned caring individual who comprehends what some people are going through as well. I think I mentioned on here what people could do with all those billions of dollars that are spent each year on porn, camming and other sex related work that would benefit those that really didn't want to cam in the first place.

It is almost as if, you really are not looking at the entire spectrum of things in the bigger sense of of it all. Just what benefits you and those who have commonality with your views. I know this work does help people, but my view and experiences and for all the members here that voice their opinions and experiences that ended in them actually becoming fodder or just mindfucked them in the end is nothing to sneeze over nor dismiss. And not to mention all those who we do not hear from.



QUOTE

Once again this isn't CAMMING. This is third world economics. This is children working 14 hours a day in factories to make Nike shoes...Women in China and Korea sewing garments for 14+ hours per day till their fingers are bent and crooked and bleed? Where are THEIR damn White Knights?

Oh wait, they aren't beautiful nubile young women with pretty titties and winning smiles...So they aren't worth saving...Is that it?


Wow, you're stereotyping here. If you have read some of my posts from years ago, you would have read that I noted and mentioned about the cam women who are not as beautiful or beautiful for lack of a better description, who work as cam models, who have to compete with the Barbie dolls, with fake boobs, and looks to kill.You read me so wrong with the nubile young women, because personally, it is not looks that are the first thing I look for in any woman anywhere I meet. I am not so shallow so don't throw that beauty stuff at me using it as if I want to save a beautiful woman or ugly woman and choose one over the other.

So it isn't that either.



QUOTE
See, you want to set up a "fight" here, when there is none. Women, Children and yes, even men being enslaved to do labor they do not want to do, or being forced into "choosing" jobs which are the only other choice to starving is WRONG. It's a "Bad Thing"...Is that what you want to hear? I've never denied it. I have spent parts of my life fighting it on all levels, not just the sexual, and especially because many of these cam-models have it bad, but not AS BAD as a child in the Philippines forced to work heavy machinery for 18 hours a day. One of the jobs we eliminated with Unicef and Concordia, was a child of 7 made to crawl through the machinery on a press that was often 160 degrees, and if it activated while the child was inside, the child was killed, and the child we helped save was the 4th one in that position in recent memory, because the other 3 were "no longer with us". So I apologize if cam-models are sometimes a bit lower on the priority list for rescue.


Hey stop there, because if you paid any attention and stopped being so emotional, I actually mentioned the same things you say here on this forum. Did you miss the sentence I once wrote that our views about such things are quite similar, I guess not, when it comes to slave labor or human rights? I even passed along articles to Uncle here, regarding such topics.

QUOTE
But let's be clear. What happens in third world countries as far as trafficking and slavery and "no-choice choices" is not a fair thing to bring into this, since it is almost every industry in those nations which is affected by the same things...it is a poverty mentality we are discussing, and not "Camming" per say.


I don't disagree with you here. Well, how can you explain to me, that a cam model I know can't earn a cent anymore in camming, who is desperate that they cry out for help? Perhaps, she might have a better chance of survival working 14 hours a day in a sweat shop then. Niether cases are good and in both cases both individuals are in poverty.

QUOTE
QUOTE
How about the white knights who kill themselves until they are broke themselves to help a woman they care about, who hates this work?


What about them? They are dumb and ineffective. Open a cam-site that is better. Get 10 of you white knights together and make a non-profit camsite that is all about saving models. You would do more for more women, have more fun, and probably do less overall work.

Shit, support our Cooperative. We'll have a benefit at some point, and lets see how many white knights show up and make this happen...pfft...


Hmmm.... are you calling members that have admitted helping a cam model out, dumb and ineffective? Well boys and gals, speak up now or stop helping your friends out.

You know you are missing the point, F the cam girl part and just treat them as people. Now who is labeling others here?

Why on Earth would I support something I find to be based upon fantasy and pornography, whereas, I could do as you mentioned earlier, and stop the abuse and inhumane actions of greedy corporations, governments and people who use their power and wealth to control the other 90% of the Earths inhabitants?

Only the women in camland will have the benefits from your ideas, not the overwhelming majority of people(men,women and children) who do not even work in camland. In fact for you to help others they would have to become cam models to actually benefit from your idea as opposed to what other suggestions I have written here way before you joined our forum here. But go ahead carry on....

Well, I really can not speak for nurgg, I hope he replies to your query as to why he did such a thing.

QUOTE

QUOTE

So here we are, camming, the save all work,huh. And the regular 9-5 work for less pay is to be frowned upon.


Where the F*ck do you come up with your ideas? I mean why aim this to me? I have never said any work is to be frowned upon, I believe EMPLOYMENT is to be frowned upon and we should embrace robots taking all the jobs and change our entire economy so employment becomes less and less relevant. Look up Bob Black Abolition of Work or click there.


Allow me to enlighten you now, that was not my idea or thoughts, it is those of your colleagues. Don't piss me off now, I will go back in time and search for each post by a cam model that said that very thing that pissed you the F off, so once again stop stereotyping me. You are making this personal like people have accused me of here before, without realizing that my words often come directly from the horses mouths.

QUOTE
Camming is not "save all work" and I don't know what makes put words in my mouth like this, but camming can be an enjoyable way to make a phenomenally good paychack and can very well be an extremely HONEST transaction when done right. Much like prostitution can be when perfect.


Honest? When done right? Well guess what changed my overall opinion about this work and many of those who are involved within the environment. We once had a discussion on this forum about the honesty of the profession of camming. If I recall, the question is, "Is it the person or the job that makes them do unethical or immoral things?"

Or perhaps, it is both. Now before you get angry at that line, I did not refer to the sexual part of camming either.

QUOTE
But camming is far from perfect, and that paradigm is because of the way camming has evolved and what it has become today. Go watch Streamate's COMMERCIAL...it is for a really sexy site which is about meeting women you want to date and get to know as girl-friends and sex partners...This wasn't made by CAM-MODELS...it was made by Streamate! I'm not supposed to put links to anything commercial here, so I will resist, but a quick search of streamate tv on youtube will make you sick...

It is exactly what YOU seem to be so harshly against....and rightly so.


Once again, I mentioned that point too long ago. Do your homework and stop jumping to conclusions again. I have passed marketing and email adverts to Uncle here that underscores exactly what the point and the thing that makes you sick as well.

QUOTE

QUOTE
If not for the immigrants in the USA most Americans would be starving to death, because it is beneath them to work in the fields for low pay, but many foreigners would do it in a heartbeat.


You seem be excusing paying people low slave-like wages here and dissing Americans for demanding high pay for their precious and irreplaceable time? I don't get this...I find it disgusting a basketball player who is doing what he loves, will strike or quit because he isn't paid MILLIONS per year, while someone who works the fields for 14 hours a day till their hands are raw, 6 days a week can be paid minimum wage or less.... But I don;t attack the basketball player, I attack the people who pay a mexican laborer $3 an hour.


You actually got my point there. I am not excusing anyone, but the fact that a sports figure earns that much for nothing but entertainment, yet the important jobs like menial labor work, that pay so little, is unattractive, and beneath people, which actually no one wants to do, except those from poorer areas of the world highlights how skewed things are in reality.

I would attack both because both emphasizes a serious problem in what becomes less or more important these days to people.




QUOTE

QUOTE

Just like people who say they hate their low wage paying jobs with their shitty prick bosses that they felt was getting them no where and are fed up. Or even higher up on the corporate ladder,where people are treated like shit, and some of you just want to run away and be free and independent. Yeah yeah, there you go, you have that choice or the job of camming.


I don't even get this statement..if it IS a statement. I mean, it is two unrelated concepts you are trying to relate falsely. Camming is a job, and it's pretty hard work, and it is kind of fun if you have the right mindset, and it pays well if done correctly...What does this have to do with jobs in America? Or even in thrid world countries? I mean generally, if you close a studio that does trafficking and enslacves women, those women end up prostitutes with AIDS within a few years, or working in sweatshops. How did your white knightism help?


You have a serious problem with white knightism don't you?

Every job is hard on this planet. To become good at any job you have to work hard to get to the top. Doesn't matter what job it is, if you don't work hard you won't succeed.

I mentioned it because it is again statements I have read here and on SW by your colleagues who complain about their shitty jobs they had, the mean rude bosses they worked under and the people who demean another persons work generally. How dare anyone tell me my job sucks if it pays less than what some models earn. That was my point overall. Over and over again, I have read or heard from people within your industry of camming putting down others based upon the almighty dollar. A teacher earns much less than many other professions should I frown upon that low paying job too as other do soley because others make bank providing sexual fantasies to horny men and women?

I had a cam model ask me to become the middleman in a way to make money off of other cam models. I declined, because I thought it was unethical and greedy to boot and told them off.

QUOTE
QUOTE

Hmmm.... now think of that woman thousands of miles away from you, where that minimum fucking shit job, many complain so much about is like a dream for others. My,my,my, how things can be viewed from a different perspective.


And now think of the 40 year old ugly woman who is toiling away within a mile of the comparably cushy cam studio, and her arthritic fingers are bleeding as he works for 14 CENTS an hour...and she would give ANYTHING to be pretty and able to make what a cam-model does.


Everyday I think of it. My parents did that and they survived and made a life for themselves. And there you go "and she would give ANYTHING to be pretty and able to make what a cam-model does".

I quoted you, exactly what I was referring to in my previous reply before this one here. ANYTHING? I would not, I know thousands of others who would not give "ANYTHING". Nice try though.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Hmmm.. I know a friend of mine, who actually went out of their way to create job(s) for someone who said they want out and then got their ass fucked over.


Feel sorry for them...they should have done a better job and more research...because they got f*cked over for a REASON.


Lol, and I thought I was a prick, congrats to you for your lack of empathy or sympathy. Thanks for revealing your inner feelings, maybe that person is a member of this forum or not. Maybe they will speak up or not. Everyone gets fucked over for a reason. And some don't deserve to get fucked over for no reason as well. I tend to root for the underdog and hope those who deserve to get fucked over get what is coming to them.


QUOTE
QUOTE
The choices we all make,huh.


You're part of the problem, or part of the solution. But even more-so, you either represent intelligent action in changing the status quo, or you do things that band-aid or even hurt...


The status quo huh, that's what Khnum was referring to. That is why nothing will change in camming, because it is not you gals who create the demand, the customer is the one who creates the demand. And the only way you or I or anyone else will change the status quo is not in your fantasy world of camming but in the reality of life outside the computer online internet. Have you forgotten why people turn to sex work for the most part? Lookingforwishes speaks of it quite clearly, many of my cam model friends speak about it to me from across the pond over in Europe.


QUOTE
QUOTE

I won't go any further but for many this job is not their choice of first or second employment,perhaps it is the lack of choice that some do enter it, and after awhile it does change them for a long time or forever. Think of those that have no option, and don't want to become fodder like the rest.


I have no problem with this. I AGREE with you. Those women are to be helped and they are to have better lives, and there is nothing you say which is falling on deaf ears...I do what I can to help NOW...But none of this has ANYTHING to do with what I am doing, and what I am doing can do nothing BUT help these women....So why come donw so intensely and with such rhetoric that I don;t even support?


Because I know of quite a few models who didn't want to do this work, but had to. I know if there is something I can do to help them not have to do something they do not want to do, then I am going to help them. I am not going to allow someone to sacrifice their ethics or principles simply because the "status quo" in the real world has fucked them over so badly that we forget what is most important to prevent things from going too far or crossing boundaries. Take off those blinders you are wearing and look outside the box, miss.

How many cam models do NOT do this as a profession? How many hope to run away from this as fast as they can? Honestly, in comparison, to those who "chose" it, what are the ratios and percentages? I know a few models who married members to get them out of this world. I know alot who could not take it anymore and just quit. I know many who ripped off members in order to get out as fast as they can. Coolbreeze calls those ripped off members fodder. I call that a sin against humanity.

Catch my drift there?

QUOTE

QUOTE
To quote, Khnum, again, "they have to want out" add before it is too late for some as well.


Fine, so help me help them....and all the other women who do this...We won;t save everyone, because this is something I cannot even touch...the economic status of third world nations and the labor policies thereof...sorry, I can help the cam industry be better worldwide, but I can't change how much Philippine is worth.


Been there, tried that, done that, in the camworld. In the camworld, as you say, women can make a pretty penny, why would any of you need help? Whereas, in the real world and for those who never wanted to enter this job, what about them, I should stand idly by, and say, I can't help you not enter the job of camming because if things are so bad, this is your only viable way out of the mess you consider reality.

I apologize, but I can not promote or trust anything a cam model will tell me in their work environment any longer. If you bothered to read anything your colleagues have written regarding how they view members who visit these sites, it isn't all that flattering or respectful. When it comes down to it, I am not a $$$ but I am a human being just like you are. I value non monetary things than monetary things these days. And guess whom you can thank for me coming to that opinion, philosophy and view? Camming and the experiences and people I have met in it.


QUOTE
Fine, so help me help them....and all the other women who do this...We won;t save everyone, because this is something I cannot even touch...the economic status of third world nations and the labor policies thereof...sorry, I can help the cam industry be better worldwide, but I can't change how much Philippine is worth.


Why can't you touch them? I touched an innocent person in Romania and saved their life. I simply have no desire to help the industry which caused more harm than good personally in my life. You can thank all those whom you did not know, Bambalina, for changing my views about this work. Take that to the bank and cash it.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   

#33 [url]

Sep 29 11 12:35 PM

Wow..Hats off to Bamb and Trainer.. There actually a great deal of agreement here - at least about the issues that need discussion.. labor conditions... in a global industry where payscales and working conditions reflect both a general employment crisis and a "race to the bottom" that's organized by web-pimps who profit from the competition of free and less free labor...

The disagreement is about whether Western cam models should organize themselves to control their business.. Khrum doesn't think it can happen because he doesn't think it should.. For him, Sex work is a schoolroom for immorality and dishonesty - not to mention porn propaganda for how to have bad sex and ruin your real relationship with your partner(s). lol. Which is why he has worked hard to get some Romanian models out of the industry and into another line of work..So Hats off to him for the risks he's run and the dedication he has shown.

But since it will happen, and smart women will use their brains and their "erotic capital" to get ahead - best they do it by setting the terms of their own exploitation and working within their personal comfort zone with as much power in the workplace as possible. Which was by the way, our position when we started here five years ago.
Look here:
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...st=0#entry20221

UL
P.S. We here to observe trends in this industry and discuss ideas for dealing with health issues and working conditions, but not to promote particular commercial enterprises..even if they are collective ones.. What individual members do is their own business of course, so we won't stop anyone from cooperating on a project - but off site.
--------------------
Click here to view the attachment

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

bambalina

Very Talkative

Posts: 45

#34 [url]

Sep 30 11 9:48 AM

Firstly, apologies if I seemed to be promoting my cooperative idea. I am not, but trying to make a point. If I ever do have a benefit, I will expect that you all know about it because you're all reading SW and CGU...

What I am promoting is cooperatives. Cam-girls all over the world in any area that allows it, should all be working to create cooperatives to fairly treat their "colleagues" as Trainer says.

I realize there are many places it isn't possible, But Malaysia and a few others have benefited wonderfully from the introduction of cooperatives as a business model. I believe if there are popular cam-sites in existence and they do not take studios which treat models unfairly and FIRE those that are found to, it would change things, and ethical studios would spring up to fill the vacuum.

Also, the main argument between me and Trainer is that I am just as much or moreso an activist, and I am repeatedly insulted by being painted, very dishonestly, with a brush I do not deserve to be painted by, and when I show restrained passion, I get insulted by being called emotional. Maybe the problem is in how people READ me sometimes, as I was not really very emotional at all writing that.

Also, I do not feel that I am heartless, because I feel that to waste effort is something I cannot change or help. I have been there guys.

I also realize I may have come off as "dissing" the efforts of those who saved these women who needed to be saved. I promise, I think it's VERY cool that you guys go out of your way and spend your money and time to help women who need you. I DO however, think that MANY of the men I have read on here, would help a cam-model but don't even THINK of helping child laborers and sweat-shop workers, and this is because men have a tendency to notice and feel protective or even fatherly about the young women in peril scenario. On top of which, the Cam-girl has a cam and a voice to cry to you and beg for help, and the sweatshop worker of the kid crawling in the press machine have no way to reach out to you, and need you to FIND them....So if I sometimes come off as giving less credit than you might feel is due...well, so be it...but I do give credit to any human willing to help another human...period.

I personally see aspects of this discussion as stupid, to be blunt. Because the plight of third world workers which INCLUDE cam-models, and the situation for Western Cam-models, is like two different subjects COMPLETELY. In my opinion.

Also, to paint all cam-models with one brush is the same as the cam-model who paints all customers as one....it is ridiculous...there are SO many motivations and ideas, friendship levels and attitudes about what is acceptable in the realms of fantasy and sexuality...

Let me remind you that MANY customers now seek out something called a GFE. Which is for those who don't know, a Girl Friend Experience. I had a regular for years ask me to do this and I asked him exactly what it entails for him, and it is basically that I am to lie and act as if I am truly his girlfriend. I will be paid for just watching videos with him and hanging out, and being "his girlfriend"...and I refused. Because that blurs a line this married woman will not blur. But I don't blame many women who do this, and who then get paid much higher amounts for non-nude non-sexual behavior most of the time...but I see MANY more guys coming her complaining of being "fodder" because aa girl didn;t realize how this blurs lines and a guy didn't realize it is a girl PRETENDING to be something she is not.

But I think there is a huge continuum of these sorts of things already, and so we have who believe in the shark-like cam model who will suck you dry with any lie she can, and others who believe there are men who just cannot play-act and fit into a world where the fantasy is CLEARLY spelled out as fantasy. And where to call someone playing along with a shared fantasy a LIAR, is a bit like calling every writer of Fiction a LIAR. Or every movie-maker who does fiction. I KNOW there are women who DECEIVE men, and there are also men who SERIOUSLY deceive themselves and then blame women for it. And everything in between.

But again, this isn't CAMMING. It is life! Have you ever been to a singles bar??? Guys telling every lie to get a woman in bed, women doing everything they can to get drinks bought for them, or to avoid the wolves and just have fun and dance, or to get the guy with the nice car and job so they can "hook him", and among those people are SOME who came to have fun and dance and if they meet someone cool to make a date and see that person again and get to know them...it is a spectrum, and it exists in EVERY arena...

Corporate America: Bosses who take credit for employees greatness, the person who steps on everyone to get to the top, the slacker who just wants to get by and will do so at your expense...I mean life is about figuring out who is deceiving you and who is telling the truth and what kind of relationship or time you can or should spend with each one....

How is Camming any different?

Well, Streamate making a commercial and saying that Local Girls are waiting on line to chat and date YOU! is serious sham and is willful decption which brings men who are lonely to spend real quality time in real life with a real woman who will realaly date them and such...THAT is not fantasy, but deception.

Will I say that a woman who straight up deceives men when camming is wrong? Absolutely.

But then will you admit that MANY men talk to fairly honest women in a "fantasy" occupation and get seriously hung up when that is obviously rule #1?....these girls ARE NOT to meet and love and befriend....these girls are to share a fantasy and pay them, because they are WORKING and you're an asshole if you waste their time and expect to hang out and monopolize their time for FREE. I mean...a clarity of boundaries is VERY important in this business.

Anyway....enough for now...One last thing for Trainer. I did not, and will not go back and read everything you've written back to the stone-age...I like our discussions but cannot (do not have the physical time while raising a family and doing business) to go read the reams of stuff you have written. So I have NO CLUE what you have done and haven't...I know only the you who constantly attacks me with things my "colleagues" say or do as if I said them.

B

Quote    Reply   

#35 [url]

Sep 30 11 11:14 AM

Hey Bambalina, you are more than free to discuss your cooperative as an idea here and why it's needed; how it addresses the major problems models face in the industry. ... and then tell models where (CGU Forum) they can talk to you directly about it...

But we just can't allow active recruitment for it on this site.. Sounds to me like a separate topic suitable for either the Silver Forum. or the models section.

Also I hope that you and Trainer can avoid getting into a personal flame war and keep your eye on the main issue here.. Trainer is a good guy and you are an interesting writer but please try to avoid making this discussion too personal... If you ask him what's he's done for models, he WILL tell you as he has told all of us many times.. and then this discussion will go down a rabbit hole...

So please mind your step.. guys and gals.

UL
Mod

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

bambalina

Very Talkative

Posts: 45

#36 [url]

Oct 1 11 2:59 AM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ September 30, 2011 11:14 am)
Hey Bambalina, you are more than free to discuss your cooperative as an idea here and why it's needed; how it addresses the major problems models face in the industry. ... and then tell models where (CGU Forum) they can talk to you directly about it...

But we just can't allow active recruitment for it on this site.. Sounds to me like a separate topic suitable for either the Silver Forum. or the models section.

Also I hope that you and Trainer can avoid getting into a personal flame war and keep your eye on the main issue here.. Trainer is a good guy and you are an interesting writer but please try to avoid making this discussion too personal... If you ask him what's he's done for models, he WILL tell you as he has told all of us many times.. and then this discussion will go down a rabbit hole...

So please mind your step.. guys and gals.

UL
Mod

Agreed, and overall, I don;t have a problem with Trainer, and I trust he has done much for models. I just hope he can talk to me as an individual, and not a cam-model "like all the rest"...

I believe every individual is different, and where there are men who do wonderful things for the very concept of doing them, and because of empathy and compassion, there ARE also men who do it to get laid or because they want to save a Damsel in Distress (as opposed to a PERSON who is oppressed and needs saving) and at the same time, while there are evil cam-models who deceive and cheat and use men like fodder, there are other who share true friendships, and even others who just waant to work and give a bit of joy while making some money....and these people do not deserve to be lmped in and insulted (on EITHER side) with their more negative peers.

Otherwise, we're all good...Now it's time to quit talkin and start chalkin, and get to saving helping the scene....

B

Quote    Reply   

#37 [url]

Oct 1 11 1:58 PM

Finally, thank you both Uncle and Bambalina.

Guess what, Bambalina, I agree with you in your last two posts here.

Especially, the "stop viewing you as a cam model now". Or members here as a $ sign.

We are not discussing things in the environment of your job here and now. We are just two people that inhabit this planet.

I really do not want people from both sides of the screens or on far sides of the Earth to get hurt, misused or abused.

To become "fodder" or to be viewed as a piece of meat, to me both are results of stereotypical ways that people "lump" others into where the end results is more negative than positive.

I will leave it at this point now.

But I do have one question or two, for you Bambalina.

Why do you think you got banned somewhere else? Was it because you did not maintain the status quo in regards to the philosophy of the purpose of that forum?

Free speech is a privilege and a freedom, no matter what is written or said. In many ways and philosophies we are quite similar. Now that is kind of scary when you think of it.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   

#38 [url]

Oct 1 11 10:07 PM

QUOTE
I DO however, think that MANY of the men I have read on here, would help a cam-model but don't even THINK of helping child laborers and sweat-shop workers, and this is because men have a tendency to notice and feel protective or even fatherly about the young women in peril scenario. On top of which, the Cam-girl has a cam and a voice to cry to you and beg for help, and the sweatshop worker of the kid crawling in the press machine have no way to reach out to you, and need you to FIND them


Basically, you are saying that older men with cash to burn are feeding their ego's psychologically by acting like a father figure. That's why cam models look for the older mature man whom has a stable job and life, for the most part.

QUOTE
Because the plight of third world workers which INCLUDE cam-models, and the situation for Western Cam-models, is like two different subjects COMPLETELY. In my opinion.


That is why I wrote that western cam models have a head start in comparison to others in different areas of the world.

QUOTE
Also, to paint all cam-models with one brush is the same as the cam-model who paints all customers as one....it is ridiculous...there are SO many motivations and ideas, friendship levels and attitudes about what is acceptable in the realms of fantasy and sexuality...


I agree entirely, except with the use of friendships and attitudes in the realms of fantasy and sexuality. See, the difference is, that this fantasy world of sexuality is a place where anything can be promoted using sexual lust,desire, and the human weaknesses of individuals who are either lonely, porn addicted or have some type of chemical or mental imbalance.

Now don't get me wrong, sexuality and the enjoyment of desire,lust is all well and good in reality. But I have an issue using it as a way to sexually fulfill a persons fantasies for payment. Especially when it is conducted in real time with other humans. Much different when compared to other types of pornography. There are no reactive responses or real time stimulus when the content is recorded. In real live interactions, the weaknesses and many other human traits and personalities make camming much more addictive and too intimate.
Very hard for humans to not get too involved when both stimuli are live and real.

If this is a fantasy, then both individuals must be mature or possibly reminded that it is nothing more that just a job. I find individuals seeking and searching for bf's,gf's and gfe's on cam sites are looking for a world of shit.

But we all know that members meet models, some for friendship and others for romance. While many models I see, create contests to promote real time meetings.

How do you feel about that, Bambalina? Do you think it should be occurring?

If you have a family as you have mentioned then you most likely do not allow it in your chat. Many cam models here and on SW admit wholeheartedly that they are disgusted by these meetings. While many others use it as a way to make bank.

There is one of the problems that creates conflict and a type of hypocrisy in some ways.

It also may lead to people using and manipulating others as well. Are you willing to change that to promote a more honest and professional type of cam fantasy world?

You did mention somewhere that you want to create a type of friendship based type of atmosphere in this "fantasy" world. I understand that can work quite well with all the members seeking gfe's and gf's, seeking to diminish their loneliness.

These intimate connections, real or fantasized, conflicts with what quite a few other models view their jobs as and how they want it to be conducted.

It is portrayed or played out like this:

One side says:

I am not here to become your friend, nor become your girlfriend, nor either to meet you in person, have sex with you, or anything much more than payment for services in a fantasized manner.

Whereas, the other side says:

I will promote raffles and meeting for dinner,tours, and time spent together(some for sex and some not for sex). Or those, who actually feel they have met their white knight or made some real friendship or romantic connection. Which then leads to exchanges of personal info and moves to another more intimate connection. Which then can lead to anything occurring, such as, actually genuine bf/gf relationships, marriage, genuine friendships.

Or just a scam to benefit financially using all types of devious and deceptive methods people will use with or against another.

In your own words now:

QUOTE
Let me remind you that MANY customers now seek out something called a GFE. Which is for those who don't know, a Girl Friend Experience. I had a regular for years ask me to do this and I asked him exactly what it entails for him, and it is basically that I am to lie and act as if I am truly his girlfriend. I will be paid for just watching videos with him and hanging out, and being "his girlfriend"...and I refused. Because that blurs a line this married woman will not blur. But I don't blame many women who do this, and who then get paid much higher amounts for non-nude non-sexual behavior most of the time...but I see MANY more guys coming her complaining of being "fodder" because aa girl didn;t realize how this blurs lines and a guy didn't realize it is a girl PRETENDING to be something she is not.

But I think there is a huge continuum of these sorts of things already, and so we have who believe in the shark-like cam model who will suck you dry with any lie she can, and others who believe there are men who just cannot play-act and fit into a world where the fantasy is CLEARLY spelled out as fantasy. And where to call someone playing along with a shared fantasy a LIAR, is a bit like calling every writer of Fiction a LIAR. Or every movie-maker who does fiction. I KNOW there are women who DECEIVE men, and there are also men who SERIOUSLY deceive themselves and then blame women for it. And everything in between.


If I have to read or hear a cam model deny, or say it never occurs, then what you just wrote above I think I will use your quote here as proof otherwise.


QUOTE
But again, this isn't CAMMING. It is life! Have you ever been to a singles bar??? Guys telling every lie to get a woman in bed, women doing everything they can to get drinks bought for them, or to avoid the wolves and just have fun and dance, or to get the guy with the nice car and job so they can "hook him", and among those people are SOME who came to have fun and dance and if they meet someone cool to make a date and see that person again and get to know them...it is a spectrum, and it exists in EVERY arena...

Corporate America: Bosses who take credit for employees greatness, the person who steps on everyone to get to the top, the slacker who just wants to get by and will do so at your expense...I mean life is about figuring out who is deceiving you and who is telling the truth and what kind of relationship or time you can or should spend with each one....


Well if that is what we do to each other in reality then logically and naturally it will occur in the reality of the fantasy world of camming.

In either scenario, I personally as well as many others, dislike those head games and lies. Just like it does occur in the world of videochat.

So really, whom is to blame?

QUOTE
How is Camming any different?

Well, Streamate making a commercial and saying that Local Girls are waiting on line to chat and date YOU! is serious sham and is willful decption which brings men who are lonely to spend real quality time in real life with a real woman who will realaly date them and such...THAT is not fantasy, but deception.

Will I say that a woman who straight up deceives men when camming is wrong? Absolutely.


Would you want to outlaw or ban that type of marketing? Can you stop it even?

I am still watching a models recorded material being used by individuals on a website with the website admins and management knowledge, who turn the other way so they can rip of individuals. In this situation, then these people who do pay for watching stolen recorded shows are fodder and are in desperate need of attention, in my humble opinion.

So there is a lack of integrity and business ethics with little being done to prevent it or even stop it, simply because money is being made off of it.

And so it goes.


QUOTE
But then will you admit that MANY men talk to fairly honest women in a "fantasy" occupation and get seriously hung up when that is obviously rule #1?....these girls ARE NOT to meet and love and befriend....these girls are to share a fantasy and pay them, because they are WORKING and you're an asshole if you waste their time and expect to hang out and monopolize their time for FREE. I mean...a clarity of boundaries is VERY important in this business.


fairly honest? So you mean half truths then?

I am a bit confused with the statement above. You want to create a videochat where friendships at a certain level can be conducted yet, you say it is just a job and it is a business. What do you expect if individuals are attempting to create friendships between a man and a half dressed woman, which involves exposing themselves to each other to climaxes and orgasmic paradise? Robots with no hearts or brains might be able to remove the emotional aspects of these types of relationships perhaps.
But expecting humans who have a propensity for addictive, obsessive/compulsive behavior to dismiss their human traits is asking for a bit much. I am not saying it can't be done, but then it sort of is desensitizing the work and the interactions in my humble opinion.

I think that statement is conflicting and hypocritical based upon the premise of why you are there working a job.As well as the lack of self control of the customer and the comprehension of the boundaries you are alluding to.

Quite honestly, when a model tells me in private about her life good or bad, or seeks more from me in the past, it led to nothing but their failure in their ability to act in a mature logical and rational manner. Especially if they truly and genuinely want something positive, constructive and genuinely honest and real, when they had dared to cross the boundary you describe above.

QUOTE
One last thing for Trainer. I did not, and will not go back and read everything you've written back to the stone-age...I like our discussions but cannot (do not have the physical time while raising a family and doing business) to go read the reams of stuff you have written. So I have NO CLUE what you have done and haven't...I know only the you who constantly attacks me with things my "colleagues" say or do as if I said them.


Fair enough, perhaps in due time you will, or I will completely piss you off.(sarcastic joke). camgirlnotes/bq.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

Quote    Reply   

#39 [url]

Oct 2 11 12:58 AM

Trainer, Bambalina is not the enemy.. She's a member here.
She's not here to answer for the sins, real or imagined, of the industry..
So calm down... Please
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

bambalina

Very Talkative

Posts: 45

#40 [url]

Oct 3 11 1:43 AM

QUOTE (UncleLewis @ October 02, 2011 12:58 am)
Trainer, Bambalina is not the enemy.. She's a member here.
She's not here to answer for the sins, real or imagined, of the industry..
So calm down... Please
UL

Thank you Unc, but the last post was absolutely fine...He responded to MY words and those I have no trouble explaining or defending.

I will get to it later, but I think we're making some real headway in having a real discussion of these issues.

I'd love to see you weigh in as well.

B

Quote    Reply   
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help