#1 [url]

May 29 06 12:56 PM

On Online Friendships...Oh My...!!!

Greensleeves.. this is a really hard topic...in many ways..
because online "friendships" are hard to disentangle from the commercial relationship between clients and models.

Everyone onsite is afraid of being used or abused one way or the other..afraid of dropping their masks; or expressing genuine feelings for fear that this openess will allow their real feelings to be fucked with..and for fear of ending up as another "sucker"..another victim who was "played."

So as one of your Kiev colleagues once said:
"Hey, Guys. This is the Internet..THERE IS NO EMOTIONS HERE."
cool.gif

But of course, she was not entirely correct....as she herself knew - since this model made at least one or two "friends" from the website who were really devoted to her personal well-being rather than just to viewing her pussy.

But just one quick look at the Models' Manual from *F4F* (posted here), can tell us what guy clients worry about most... that they will become so infatuated with that special someone, that their friendly and loving feelings will make them vulnerable to being manipulated by a model and exploited financially by a web-site. And of course, the admins at F4F and elsewhere actively encourage their models to do exactly that .. To say anything necessary to encourage a client to bond emotionally with them.. As the F4F Manual says "The money is in lonely men not horny men" - meaning those sex show customers who just come "to masturbate and then leave..."

But cam-girls have their own worries about friendship too, because their online men friends who "respect them so much.." make terrible customers who eat up a lot of the time that could be spent giving attention to the guys who might actually pay for a private show... A Russian model from Petersburg who appears on keepshows summed this up pretty well when she told me that she had made a lot of friends at work but now regretted it a little because she didn't know how to make their friendship pay her bills....

“Mad, yes, sure. But try to understand me. I spend nearly all of my time here, there r some really close friends to me, really good people whom I like not only in here, but that I think I might like in real life. But I told u this is a job… I work here not for free…”


Well I think that this dilemma is very real, and especially so for all those models who are only paid by the minute for the time they spend in private shows. One thing that we can say for the Kiev studio is that there at least the models are paid something for the long hours they spend in free chat ministering to the emotional needs of the lonely hearts and emotionally wounded...But most of the time that models spend being somebody's online social worker is never compensated.
All these services given by models - all the small gestures of sympathy - represent unpaid labor time..So are they a true labor of love ? Or merely "Love's Labour Lost..??" lol

This problem is made even more acute in my humble opinion (lol). because even if most of the clients are virtual sex tourists, many models work in video chat in the hope that they will meet at least a few men who will be both interesting and interested in them... Indeed this hope for an special friendship with a client that starts with a commercial transaction but later becomes "open-ended," is very common among sex workers, (we sociologists call it "passport eyes"). And it is the way this job is advertised at least in Russia by the some of the model agencies like Elivebusiness and Contours ( see the translations of their webpages in General informaiton). Their sales pitch to Russian students turned cam-girl seems to be something like this:
"Come be seen by the world! Make some good money and meet some nice guys."[/color]
And this hope dies hard... some models believe fiercely in the reality of their foreign, "virtual friends.."

Here's what a Russian nursing student on keepshows told me this winter on her last day on line "I have a lot of friends here. That is why I will come back (in the summer)…. Mad yes, beggars are part of our work, but I don’t think about them. I only think about my friends! They are far (away) and they love me and they need me. It is not only a job, it is more...”

But others lose faith pretty quickly - as one Bucharest model from MFC said to me last week...
“What can I say? It’s hard not to live in a fairy tale. But, it’s true that sometimes I think the same thing.... That through this job I will meet some nice guy, but the chances are too few.. I just try to be honest and nice…”

This comment raises another problem for models, I think, that was put very well by one of your former colleagues on private feedswhen she said last fall that the most difficult aspect of this job was not performing some sex act on oneself in private sessions (all those endless, baroque variations on the basic client command of "Strip and Masturbate, " lol), but the emotional desinformatzia (i.e. the constant lying about one real feelings) that are a necessary part of acting out a "part" in some client's emotional power trip... Because after all, all sex work is basically "just acting" in someone else's fantasy script.
This is what she said in her own words.

"Here feelings are just the part of the game, not the main part, but anyway, I've never told anybody here anything about love... just playing, flirting, friendship may be... that's all. And as far as I have heard from the girls working in our studio, the most difficult thing for them is not playing in pvt, but playing with people's feelings... As for the acting, sure it is necessary to a certain extent, cause people (male clients) want to feel that they are needed, that they are strong, that they are really appreciated... and sometimes that's true, not acting, sometimes that's acting... different people - different treatment..."


So there we have it in a nutshell...

What I personally think its that sex video chat exists in a larger internet network where people are using the internet all the time as an integral part of their dating and courtship practices... forming friendship networks that span the Globe on Hi5, ICQ, MSN, PalTalk or Yahoo. And of course many freelance models who work from home use all of these services as a dual-use technology - a tool for their commercial sex work, but also away of keeping in touch with their web of friendships

So it's almost inevitable - despite everything the web-pimps may try to do to prevent it - that some of the people who meet in sex chat will use this marvelous commnication network that the pimps have set up - for their own social purposes and personal agendas. So people find ways to put it to another use than the one for which it is intended - that is making tons of money really fast... These alternative uses include nuturing friendships and exploring online romances because let's face it, some models and some clients just refuse to stay within their assigned roles as "web-content" or sex show customers.

And thank God for that.

Am I wrong, Greensleeves?

Just an incurable old romantic who is a naif underneath his cynical shell?

Uncle Lewis

cool.gif

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#2 [url]

May 30 06 11:39 PM

QUOTE (Greensleeves @ May 27, 2006 07:26 pm)
Hey guys )) I wanted to raise new topic for you ..  really hard one.. about friendship at the site.. what do you think of it?

Well...after Uncle..what else can we say ? cool.gif


But to add my small contribution to this issue Greensleeves, i'll just say that yes of course people can meet new friends on those kind of websites, websurfers with models, models with websurfers...but websurfers with websurfers too

As soon as there is some kind of "complicity", issues, opinions that may gather people together i think that friendship is possible. And i'm talking about real Friendship, not people you call friends just because they are not enemies lol

But as Uncle explained it , i think that friendship is possible on those websites because they have been hijacked from their primary goal... Why? Because people there are human beings and not animals, as far as i know !

I have myself met people i would consider as friends now on this kind of website, models and websurfers.
But time will show if the "website friendship" is as valid as the "street" one

I tried my best
L

Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#3 [url]

May 30 06 11:43 PM

Uncle, how do you manage to quote people this way ??
I'll be careful on whatever i tell you now !!

I'm out


Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#4 [url]

May 31 06 3:45 AM


If I quote people, it is from things that they said in public rooms on different websites...in a way that is both accurate and tries to reflect their point of view.
But never in a way so what those people have said is ever tracable back to them personally.

I have promised all of the people who have given me interviews to protect their identities - unless they give me specific permission to quote them by name.. which a few models have done in Bucharest, but nowhere else...

There is no point in talking to people about their lives in this industry, if what they have to say is then buried.. or paraphrased in words that are not own...Most of the time that people spend online in these websites is spent in conversation - text- messaging - for hours on end. And most of the time what people say is said quite thoughtlessly in a carefree way as though no one was listening. But some of the time, at least, models and clients say things that are worth taking seriously and remembering. And that is what I have tried to do for months now. Listen carefully, remember accurately and think things through...

Uncle Lewis

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#6 [url]

May 31 06 8:05 PM


Slider, Big Memory mon oeil...

cool.gif

It's not a matter of memorization...but of careful note taking during model's shifts...and keeping complete files of peoples' correspondence, and now thanks to the new program -of saving whole pages of dialogue between clients, models and web-surfers who pass-by.. It's not a matter of remembering, it's called record keeping.

In this way, an online reseacher like me can build up a "field journal" to which daily notes on events and persons in different rooms, studios and web-sites can be added over the days and weeks.
The result is something like what an anthropologist would call a "field journal" - a "thick description" of a community or a milieu, that is packed with specific details and exact transcipts of the interactions between different community actors.

And that, Slider, is what Ol' Uncle Lewis has up to, loo these many months that he has spent on three web-sites, MFC, peeks and private feeds - each of which represent distinct online communities - with different sets of players - and different bad guys toos.

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#7 [url]

Jun 1 06 4:40 PM

Ok, guys now that is all made clear , i want to give my point of view on this topic.

Yes of course Greensleeves, friendship is possible on these kind of sites, if I speak for myself now.. Yes I have met some people online there who I can call my friends. But I agree with L, time will tell if these “online” friendships, were real or just a time being one…

I agree with most Uncle mentioned already, but let me say this about it;
Of course you have to distinguish the possible pvt clients from the guests who just visit the models because they just like to chat there. But of course this kind of sex chat sites will lead many times for both the pvt clients and models to a “playing with feelings game” like they supposed to do according their manuals which they received from their employer.. , some (both models and clients) are getting lost in that play and can’t hardly see the difference between “real” friendship and a commercial relationship, others just don’t .....
What can I say more about it?

But is friendship possible on there? Yes of course it is…cool.gif

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#8 [url]

Jun 1 06 7:07 PM

QUOTE (Supernova @ June 01, 2006 05:40 pm)
But of course this kind of sex chat sites will lead many times for both the pvt clients and models to a “playing with feelings game” like they supposed to do according their manuals which they received from their employer.. , some (both models and clients) are getting lost in that play and can’t hardly see the difference between “real” friendship and a commercial relationship, others just don’t .....

Give us names Supernova !
lol

I'm kidding

Yeah ! I agree

But that all depends on the way of thinking of both the model, and her new "friend" (costumer of the website, or not).
Who can tell who plays ? Who can tell who is being played ?

Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#9 [url]

Jun 3 06 3:09 PM

I will only add a few personal comments to what was already said...

Uncle, I must agree with what you said about online "friendships" being "hard to disentangle from the commercial relationship between clients and models", but only when there is a commercial relationship to start with...
If there is such a commercial relationship, then yes, playing with people's feelings is part of the "game"... i think i am in a unique position to say that i have heard girls tell customers things like "i love you" or even "i'll marry you" without ever meaning it...

...i have (or had) only a few online friends, yet i can confirm: "the most difficult thing for them is not playing in pvt, but playing with people's feelings..." Some of them even refuse to do that, at least not beyond a certain point, and of course lose customers on that account... I remember once i said to a girl "I love you" casually, before i was going to say i have to leave the chat... but she was afraid i really meant it, and said to me she heard these words so many times every day and also had to say that herself for her work too many times... and she just didn't want to hear that from me too... She just seemed tired of playing with people's feelings all the time... Of course, that girl, like all the other girls i have met online, knew that ours was not a commercial relationship...

Which brings me to the following question: Why would a person (who happens to do a job as cam-girl) wish to have an online relationship with a guy who is neither a potential customer, nor a prince charming, lol.
I think the answer lies in the nature of their work, and probably, somewhere deep in that persons soul...
Speaking of "the long hours they spend in free chat ministering to the emotional needs of the lonely hearts and emotionally wounded", that is only part of the whole truth, because in my humble opinion, working in this environment may in the long run also inflict emotional wounds on the person who does that kind of work... hence a mutual need for someone nice to talk to... and you probably know that many of these girls have to hide the truth about their work from their families, their friends, their bf's... in which case they can only talk about their work with the other girls from their studio, and maybe with a few "online" friends...

And yes, i was wondering myself if the "web-pimps" ever thought about the possibility that their "money making" devices would be diverted from their intended purpose, when they first came up with this idea... btw does anyone know when this industry appeared, and who had the original idea?

Afraid of expressing any more "genuine feelings" ,
I'll end my post here
Wally


P.S. Very nice idea, Greensleeves ! I hope we'll meet someday in the chat... well, we probably already did... i don't know...

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#10 [url]

Jun 3 06 3:41 PM

Nice Comments Wally, really...
And I do agree about the emotional risks to a cam model's emotional well being and self-respect. And especially about the "emotional storms" that can occur in a model's personal life if her friends or lovers find out about what she does on line. How many break-ups? How many domestic crises? I don;t know how many, but I have heard of quite a few.
Also I wonder a lot about what I call the "ordeal of free chat.." these streams of offensive messages from clients that often sounds to me like a gang rape done by "text-message..."

Of course, my model friends tell me that I take it all too seriously, and that I shouldn't pay attention to the bullshit said by beggars. They don't care about the "dirty talking" or people saying "ugly things about sex.." or so I am told..

But I wonder about its emotional toll all the same. Indeed, one could say Uncle worries about it alot - and not only its toll on models, but the lessons that men clients bring home with them after they have joined some twenty other guys in giving some poor girl the hassle of her life... You have all heard me say it at least once - I often think that Free chat is more about a commercial license to harass women than it's about their tits and ass...

As for the origins of this industry.. it developed first in America among amateurs who were into adult conversation and cyber sexxing and who first met on IRC in the middle ninties.

So take a look at the salon piece from 2001 about the Cam-girl phenomena that I posted in What is Camming? in general information. Of course the first commercial video chat sites were up and running in California and Amsterdam as early as 1996-97....

But the thing, I think, that boosted it into the stratosphere was the tech bust of 2000-2001, when the porn industry came to the rescue of the unemployed techs and programmers from Silcon Valley who were out of work after their start up companies had all gone belly up.

So Wally take a look at the whole section on the Porn industry as an engine of development for Information Technology both in the US but now Central and Eastern Europe. which is also in General information. And tell me what u think, Wally...

Anyway thanks for a great post that shows real insight; sensitivity and a lot of thought
Knowing that there are others out here who are thinking hard about all this makes me feel a little less lonely - and a little less crazy in my persona as TheMadHatter of Privatefeeds. lol

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#11 [url]

Jun 9 06 6:55 PM

QUOTE (Greensleeves @ May 27, 2006 07:26 pm)
Hey guys )) I wanted to raise new topic for you .. really hard one.. about friendship at the site.. what do you think of it?

And what do you girls think about it ?

Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#12 [url]

Jun 19 06 6:05 PM

online friendship.. there is no such thing.. and will never be.. maybe an illusion.. or a good hollywood script:))) Where you find the love of your life in a chat -room.. hahaha..
I do not believe in any such thing... and here is why...
Chating with someone.. first of all kills the spontenity of a person.. their own way of saying things.. the normal reactions that each of us have...
How can a virtual hug.. can compare with a real hug...?
How can some damm perfect smile really reflect what we feel?
When that smile.. is just .. lol.. a costume.. a gesture.. that comes with typing a lot..
And how can such a thing be? What u call an online friendship?

i work4 money.. if u want loyalty get a dog!

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#13 [url]

Jun 21 06 6:30 PM


Hmmm...SweetOctober....
The idea of long-distance relationships that are carried on by correspondance is not really all that new...
People have been doing that since Roman times by snail mail, waiting for years if necessary for letters carried by ship..

So while I agree that virtual hugs are just that .. and that no one really touches anyone in cyberspace - even when they use teledildonics.

It's also true that a camgirl's best disguise can be her perfect smile...just as showing someone her pussy can be a mask that she can hide behind.. never so well hidden as when she is exposed in public view.

But I insist that the words people exchange online do matter... and that they can both cut and caress...even when they are just said in jest.

People are building and maintaining all sorts of long distance relationships - some sexual some not - using email and chat...
The question is whether any of that kind of communication that one finds so ofen on ICQ, MSN, Paltalk, or Yahoo.. overlaps with the sexual banter that takes up people time and minds on commerical sex chat sites.
It does...not very often perhaps, but still often enough that people do find each other and takes these sites to private parts unknown.
[COLOR=blue]

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#14 [url]

Jun 22 06 11:53 AM

hmm.. u are old fashioned.. lol... and... a romantic. No f.. way!!!! U cannot know a persone.. till U meet her.. lol.. and even then .. it is probable that u don't know that person... not even close 2 a little..
Old fashioned correspondance love.. with small love letter attached to a dove's leg:)))
Come on Man.. let's think practically..
We are talkin about today.. about the present.. who comes to thess kinds of sites???
Lonely men
.... lonely.. lookin 4 a soulmate.. and all they find is some girls that only want their money.. and from lonely frustrated man... they become a lonely, horny frustrated man...

U cannot love someone by letters.. or emails..

Let's face it... the physical aspect DOES matter...yes..
but there is more to it than that.. the smell. of a person.. the voice.. the gestures.. the spontaneity.. the.. way that persone handles some situations..
The kind of stuff makes you know a person a little and love that person..

U can have "cyber love" with someone.. and have the best orgasms.. but it is still masturbation.. lol.. not the real thing...

i work4 money.. if u want loyalty get a dog!

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#15 [url]

Jun 22 06 12:47 PM

Hmmm.
Well as Regiana Flynn remarked in her column Sex Drive... "the sex is always real..only the place is virtual.."lol

Cyber sex can have real emotional consequences.. and can get people's minds and hearts into as great a twist as the real thing... without most of the actual health risks..

[I]

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#16 [url]

Jun 22 06 2:58 PM

lol i see that this topic is a hot one !
Thanks Greensleeves !
But Sweetoctober, that is what Greensleeves said :

QUOTE
Hey guys )) I wanted to raise new topic for you .. really hard one.. about friendship at the site.. what do you think of it?

Friendship...
and maybe i'm old fashion too but i don't feel the need to hug my Friends


hehe...yeah i try to focus the discussion on the real topic...as long as our moderator doesn't do it
lol

Keep goin' but try to not get off topic, or open a new one
Thanks

Do whatever you enjoy, Enjoy whatever you do.

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#18 [url]

Jul 11 06 6:20 PM

QUOTE (baracuda @ July 11, 2006 04:17 pm)
hey uncle lewis !!!!!!!!! ur mad man...how many spare time do u have man my god i can't even scroll enough on ur message common....

Once again baracuda, do you have some kind of contribution to this topic? i would like to hear it from you...

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Greensleeves

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Posts: 63

#19 [url]

Jul 19 06 6:42 PM

Hello-hello guys..
Ok, about friendship as I`ve promised you.. I was researching this paranormal activity for a rather long time..
So what can I tell you in general.. According to my research- Friendship is a hidden sort of appeal that has to remain hidden for several some reasons..
First reason - a taboo on homosexual relationships that is acquired while growing up.( which creates issues for the friendship between people of the same sex)
Second reason - other reasons ;-P. For example, not suitable appearence, situation, etc (for people of different sexes)
I was really frightened by the results of my research as according to it I was always intended to have sexual contacts with guys! BUT I am a lesbian!! That`s awful, guys.. I feel like vomiting now..
As for the friendship made in one particular website in cyberspace...
What can I say?
If you feel that you`ve made friends with a girl at the porn site - you can be sure -this girl either works with interpreter (never use word "translator" - it is a real offense to my poor heart) for those who never go into private sessions in the chat rooms..
or you are a really VIP customer who pays for more then 30 minutes of pvt per day....
That`s all, folks
Take care

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#20 [url]

Jul 24 06 5:53 PM

cool.gif
Hmmm, Another interesting but cryptic set of remarks by Greensleeves....
Who seems to be taking Sweet October's side in this argument....

And telling us that paid companionship is only that....somebody doing their job of making an illusion for which their clients will pay cash down on the barrel head...

This is the acting that sex workers do, because after all most of their customers are a kind of virutal tourist seeking an exotic fantasy - whether it's a hot and exciting foreign "dish" or emotional comfort food that soothes the wounded soul...

And of course the guys who just are looking for attractive "eye-candy" and to give themselves a good wank.. are not only the easiest to satisfy... They are the ones who are the most likely TO BE ACTUALLY SATISFIED by their sexual excursions in Cyber-ia...and to come back for more.

One good thing one can say for wankers is that they are not asking for the impossible ... just a good sex show...and maybe an ego boost - something a performer can actually give if he or she is paid enough for it.


As one of my model friends remarked last Winter:

"I can play that (part) perfectly, so that even the great Stanislavsky would say "I believe".
That's what most of them (my male customers) really need. What this is all about -For them to get the feeling that they are needed, that they are important, that they are good at everything, and that I feel great with them... and I can give them that, no problem..."


But some customers don't want to be like the other guys.."just another client", but something different -

Ah, now, Greensleeves, here come's the rub.. the hard place where we have a problem.. the difficult demanding customer who's sure to leave dissatisfied.

These are the guys who are "on to the game," and who won't buy into the illusion.
They are looking for something more "authentic" than a fake performance put on for the amusement of a bunch of self-satisfied, Western sex tourists.

They are the ones who want to really know the person on the other side of the digital divide....the girl who's 8 time zones away. They want to get the real, inside scoop...

And this search for the emotional reality beyond the "touristic" performances
can lead to a double frustration...

Either one is disappointed because the cam-model refuses to step out of her assigned role and give you something personal.. like a confidential gesture, a life story, an personal admission - so that one leaves feeling insulted at being treated like just another customer - and angry at not being recognized for the truly exceptional person you really are..lol
.

Or one is so cynical and jaded that everything one sees and hears in a chat room is enjoyed only for its "campy," absurdist aspect...

So much so - that one ends up missing the attempts that some models may make to meet you half way and have a real conversation.. which was the authentic contact you were looking for in the first place.. .
Because some models are online looking for more than just the money or the chance to practice their command of dirty words in English... They are here to have interesting encounters with some foreign guy who's coming from some glamorous place faraway from their drab and deary, everyday world.

So it seems that some of us "Wise-Guys" who are on to the "game," are sometimes too clever for our own good.


So you might ask, Greensleeves...And what about U Uncle..? You, the Old Wise Guy, who even dares to call himself occasionally TheOldKaffir, and who presumes to lecture us all from his privileged perch about things he has never directly experienced... So what about what U feel, old man? Why do U think that U r so special, so superior, huh ??

lol

And my answer is, of course, that ol' Uncle also plays his own version of the "authenticity game" ...but by his own rules...

I didn't come to this Cyber-Funhouse seeking either affection or friendship, but over these past months have been given freely some of both all the same- along with a great deal of personal attention that I didn't expect or even deserve.

But frankly, I have been the most satisfied with the straight answers - however disagreeable - that I have recieved to my endless questions..

And I must say I have been most impressed by the courage, generosity and honesty that many models have shown in giving me real information about a secretive industry - info that almost always checked out upon close examination....

So there..honest communication does sometimes happen.. and when it does that's more enough to satisfy my expectations during my travels across Sexlandia..

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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