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Apr 25 08 1:16 AM

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Here's a question to ponder....If you care about a model, should you pvt her? And if you do, what will the model think about the pvt?

I have done my share of pvting models in the past. At first, I did it simply because I was horny. However, as I stayed on these sites and became "friends" with many of them, I started to pvt them for other reasons. I would chat with them about mine or their personal lives. I still would take some pvt for a sexual pvt sometimes because I felt that letting them do these types of shows might "drum up" business from other members. Other times, I would have sexual pvts simply because I'm a horny bastard

I have plenty of debt to show for all the time I've spent in private, but what was it really for? Many times, I would pvt a model because to me, she was a friend and she was having a bad day. What did it mean to her? Does she really appreciate the sentiment, or am I simply giving her some extra money?


In the Lighten up thread, UL made this statement...
QUOTE
Of course, some other day we will need to have a chat about why most male members of this forum never take models private...or don't do so any longer.
It's not just because we are cheap.. It's because we have issues with thinking women can be bought and sold for our sexual amusement and/or we don't want to "feed the system" that makes that kind of sexual marketing possible..


I have now all but completely stopped pvts, and I know members who have completely stopped. I agree with UL...we are not cheap. Some of us think that if we take a model pvt then we are demeaning them, and yet others of us simply don't have the money because we are up to our eyeballs in debt from all the pvts we've had in the past...or both. So, here's some more questions...

1. If you somehow become a "friend" to a model before taking her pvt, does she feel differently about you once you take her? Whether the pvt is sexual or just chat...
2. If you come here and "see the light" about who really gets the money from all the pvts and vow to never pvt again, what will the model think? Does she think "He's of no use to me anymore" or "Does he not like me anymore?" Or does she even care?

I seem to care about what a model thinks of me because I tend to stick around long enough to befriend her. Luckily, most of the models I have befriended are no longer models and I am happy for them.

Some more questions...Is it moral to pvt a model at all? Is even a chat in pvt wrong simply because it "feeds the system"? Or is it an act of kindness to someone you care about?

I think many of these questions have different answers depending on the circumstances. I do not believe in "feeding the system" but what if I see a model whom I have known for years and have great respect for crying in freechat...Is it immoral to want to make her feel better by consoling her with tender words in pvt?

With all the circumstances that surround going pvt, there is one constant question that must be addressed....Can you afford the pvt? Many people ruin there lives because they either do not know how to stop or their hearts are too soft (or dicks too hard) to be able to resist. In this case, I believe it is always immoral simply because it will always cause problem despite the best intentions.


So, give me your thoughts...

If you don't want to face the truth, then why are you here?

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#1 [url]

Apr 25 08 10:43 AM

Maybe it is deja vu for many of you here, but I have been away for a long time. BTW, the other questions that I posed were open for debate too...not just the ones I numbered.

Maybe it's best to discuss this one..

QUOTE
I think many of these questions have different answers depending on the circumstances. I do not believe in "feeding the system" but what if I see a model whom I have known for years and have great respect for crying in freechat...Is it immoral to want to make her feel better by consoling her with tender words in pvt?

If you don't want to face the truth, then why are you here?

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#2 [url]

Apr 25 08 10:51 AM


Guys we have been over this ground before...many times..in endless debates about "friendship and romance" and the rights and wrongs of "feeding the machine."
So it might save us some time if we reviewed what has been said in these older topics before continuing this discussion and chasing our tails in circles...
Here are links to three relevant topics - two of them opened by model members

First Belea79 - http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...st=0&#entry1672

and then Giggles - http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=346

Now Grthngs - http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=706 .

And of course there are many other open topics in members issues that deal with the same questions.. beginning with the now infamous "Friendship" thread....

But the first question to ask is always the same...Who is it that you think that you are paying?
Then "follow the money trail..." and ask yourself who it is that you are really "helping?"

Answer: it's always the web-site and never the girl..
As in Las Vegas, in this online money racket, "The House Always Wins."
The client merely "rent her services by the minute" from the web-content provider which owns her words and images as its proprietary "adult content."

The cam-girl's emotional and sexual labor supports a whole food chain of "web-affilitates," web-content providers and studio owners and admins.
And the "market demand" of western sex tourists supports a global system in which he or she is the one who's paid the least and always last...

You can't pay her without paying them first - and it's roughly 85% of her fee... Personally I find the very thought of telling some university student to open her legs for me - knowing that she's only paid about a buck a minute - a true obscenity. I have been told that a few top models in the PF's Bucharest Studio are paid as much as $1.50 per minute - but that most girls there are only paid $1.13, and some as little as 0.90 cents...out of the $5.99 they bring in for the web-site.

Go figure out the rest for yourself.

UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#3 [url]

May 10 08 4:41 PM


Okay Trainer, I draw the line at taking models into private.. and say this despite having earned my status as an Executive Member of PF who has spent about $250 on that site since September 2005 - on average about $10 per month. In addition, I have spent about $150 bucks on both MFC and Peeks over the same time period. So why the change of heart?

I used to take models private for brief two or three minute chats if I wanted personal information or industrial secrets, but then I learned that all "privates" are recorded in logs for later review by "the web-site admins. So my private chats probably cost the girls much more in fines than the two or three dollars they might have earned... So I have stopped that practice... Next I have tried to use the featured shows since I have heard on good authority that logs are NOT kept of them, but those rooms are so crowded with frenzied customers that it's hard to have a conversation.. So I can't recommend that route either. And of course, 85% of the money paid for any time in private goes to the web-master affiliates, the website "content provider," and the studio owner, so the money you spend mainly serves to "feed the system" - rather than your favorite model. I don't see the point of giving them more resources to lure people into this "honey-pot" trap than they already have.

I guess where I may have "crossed the line" is that I have permitted myself to watch some shows on the web-sites that feature a girl's show in free voyeur mode, or to look at the library of 'screen-caps" of privates that our pirate friends have created for us on sxxxxxx. Beyond its raw purient interest, watching a girl's show as she responds to her clients "requests" (ie. commands), can actually tell a tale of its own. Depending on whether the show is "soft core" or "hard-edged," one can learn something about how far a model is prepared to go to "comply" with her client's special requests, and how far the studio pushes her in a certain direction. Their are marked differences in the way models in Romania and Slovakia seem to manage their privates for instance. I suspect that this difference in approach is a matter of studio policy and training as much as it is the girls' personal preferences.

More generally, shows tell you something about the degree that the client's sexual imagination is influenced by the other genres of pornography that he may have watched...and the extent to which the cam models show "reproduces" - under a client's personal direction - the kind of "extreme content" that characterizes the dominant genres of "Gonzo porn." For more on this, please see the article by Martin Amis on the new "prole culture" that I have posted here http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...st=0&#entry6377

BTW some websites have private shows archived going back for several years - one has over 50,000 privates online. Potentially "this library" could be accessed and treated by the same academic techniques of "content analysis" that are used for other kinds of cultural "texts." More than just a bonanza for wankers "en manque," such archives represent a data base that allows one to "see" how this industry evolved from "soft sexual simulations" to "hard core porn" production in the space of a few short years, and then document the changes.

As I have already observed elsewhere, performances that involve "anal penetration" or "fisting," "DPs" or "throat gagging" on a Dildo, are all "extreme content" shows that are physically difficult and disagreeable to perform - not to mention often quite painful - and which can carry with them significant health risks.. Just think for instance about the risk of bacteriological infection that's involved in doing an "Ass to Mouth" fuckshow with your fingers or a Dildo? You can find more discussion of the health risks of shoving things up your butt several times a day here.
http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/index.p...&st=0#entry5571
But all of these "extreme penetrations" seem to be increasing common in the amateur sex shows that cam models perform for their clients in private.

Maybe someone can get an actual count of the different types of shows and their frequency? Because the prevalence of this kind of "extreme content" tell us something about the over lap between the markets for Live Chat and regular porn and the kind of consumer demand that drives the industry, and determines what the girls must agree to do in order to stay competitive. As one Bucharest based, web-site marketing director told me two years ago: "The space that a model has to develop her online personality is limited by customer demands. If she can't do what they expect of her then she's gone. She's history..."

My impression is that Live Chat is increasingly a "rough trade" in exactly the terms that Aims laid out in his article seven years ago. I think that this is all worth knowing.. and discussing as a totally new and original twist on "The Critique of Sex Worker Lit...."

Oh well. there I go again.. sounding "stone cold" and utterly insensitive to the fact that the performances in question are often demeaning and/or painful for the model who has to perform them... not to mention represent a kind of propaganda dedicated to promoting "bad sex" and legitimating the notion that women can be bought and sold as commodities. But believe me guys and gals, I am not blind to that human dimension at all.
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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NoFool

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Posts: 42

#4 [url]

May 25 08 12:22 AM

Reading this thread, a couple of thoughts come to my mind regarding private sessions...

You may recall, I married a model a few years ago, and since then, I have known a fairly large number of others on various sites. Most, I have spent some time and money on, but only very rarely has it been of a sexual nature. I regard this in the light of "if I met this lady in real life, do I want to be her friend, or her lover?". In most cases, however beautiful or charming the lady, I opt for "friend". Maybe this is easier for me at my age (56), but I think its possible even for those of us still in thrall to their "little head".

I regard "going pvt" as something that is reasonable and proper in the context of these sites. They are, after all, businesses, and as such, require cash flow to survive. That the girl receives a pitiful share of the revenue, when she does most of the work of performing, is not fair, but I have no control over the business model. That she might not keep even this job without some input from customers is my greater concern, as I am reasonably certain that this line of work is not a first choice for very many of them.

In some ways, I see it as similar to visiting a shop or a restaurant. However charming I may be chatting up the personnel in these places, if I never buy anything, I will wear out my welcome in short order. At the very least, if I am not going to buy, I keep my visits short and pleasant. The fact of the matter is that I enjoy the company of very pretty girls, even when that company is virtual. I make no apologies for this, nor do I think any are warranted.

So, in short... pvt or not?? I vote "YES", but only what will not make you feel badly about it, for financial, or other reasons.

[FONT=Optima][SIZE=1][COLOR=purple]
Camp Ground Rules: leave it better than you found it... also works for life.

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#5 [url]

Dec 16 08 12:49 AM

Old thread, BUT

I have to say I agree with NoFool the most out of all of you. His comparison of hanging out and not buying anything in a chat room to doing the same in a shop or a restaurant is spot-on. When I go to hang out with a friend while they're working at a bar or restaurant, do I buy something and leave a tip? Of course. Friends on webcam sites should behave no differently.

Yes, it is regrettable that by buying a PVT you are contributing to an essentially exploitative system. But if you're so morally opposed to the nasty system, what are you doing there anyway? Saving people? Please.

It is important to keep in mind that by taking a model's attention away from other matters, you are costing her money. This is not an issue of to-pay-or-not-to-pay, but rather a question of WHO pays.

If you're not paying for your time with a model, then the model is paying for it. And I can tell you first-hand that this sucks, especially in situations where the model really does have some sort of connection with the client and feels guilty demanding money or else withdrawing attention.

By hanging out in her room and watching a model, you are benefiting from services she is providing. If you do not compensate her for it in some way, what you are doing is freeloading. If this is so distasteful to you, then maybe you should just get your model's MSN or IM contact info so that you guys can be friends on her time off. Maybe she'll still want to hang out in lingerie and video chat with you on her own time. Maybe.

Finally, if you are able to secure their outside contact information, many models are happy to accept gifts through Paypal. And honestly, in situations like these (again, same rules for friends working in restos) compensating your model friends for their time is much less about the amount than it is about the principle. Nothing says "I respect that what you do is work and I enjoy the services you provide" quite like a few bucks in the ol' Paypal account. So pony up, guys.

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#6 [url]

Dec 16 08 1:59 AM

It is apparent Mephe that you are on the side of the models. It is the same discussion over and over again.

What is it to be a friend? I can bring up tons of comparisons between real life and the work these women are employed in and how the definitions of friendship interact and relate.

There are many types of friendships as have been discovered and discussed on this forum. I fail to accept or acknowledge that there is some price paid for being a friend towards anyone, anywhere.In reality, the price paid goes beyond the physical cash anyone needs or receives.

If that was the case I might as well buy all the friends I want with money, and I am positive that in the final result that they are merely superficial with no depth or meaning to them at all.

Now pertaining to this work, it is up to and is under the control of the individual model who stays and goes in her free chat. And they have very little say in who should or should not go private either.They do however have a choice in how far they might deliver their next performance.
They can not control a paying customer or else she will get penalized or reprimanded,unless she is an independent model, because it is a business first and foremost. To deny a private regardless of the content is not practical or business saavy for all involved in this work(model,studio,admin,translators,website owners etc).

Yes, true a model can decide if she wants friendship away from her work too. And never should they cross, because you and I, and everyone here understands what it is all about,right? The work, a fantasy, a place where you can be in control, or be submissive.To fulfill some dream or just to earn a paycheck.But that is not always the case as well,when it comes to this fantasy either. Some may want things that normally they would not be able to receive from their significant other,or that is taboo by society or what is considered out of the norm these days. A customer, wants what they pay for, whether it is to be a friend,to have a wank, to be a lover, or some perverse show.Whatever is missing in their lives.

What you also seem to mix together is how the contact away from their work is an offshoot of their work. In most cases that may be only one of the reasons why people connect away from the sites. But I can most assuredly say that it is not true entirely with some, and I am being quite subtle in what may be really occurring.

If we were friends before you decided to work as a cam hostess, and I came to see you at work would that require me to have a show or pay to see or talk to you?Should I be obligated to buy a drink from my friend the bartender?Or purchase a suit from my friend the sales clerk when seeing them at their place of employment too?But hey I presume most people seek friends by paying them to be one.Nah.

Would you want a friend to pay you for their time away from their work too?So if your ideas of being a friend requires some kind of compensation then I deserve a lot for my free time away from their work too. What is fair is fair, yes? But this business model uses a phony,deceptive and ingenious methodology to hook people into something that is not natural when it comes to real friendship or love or whatever.Next time maybe someone should ask their spouses to pay to play too, in the bedroom. I don't think that is what friends are for. But then the friendship thread covers it quite extensively.

Now if what you are saying is the correct and ethical thing to do, then I do not think friendship and this work should co-mingle. It is not what friendship is all about.Once again it is all about money. And whoever it is,a model or a member,crosses that threshold,then something more is occurring. But once again, you fail to look at both views. Look closer at the interactions of all these people and do not be close minded. It might surprise you. And all those training manuals that studios and websites employ is a testament to the real reality of it. And that is the facts.

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

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#7 [url]

Dec 16 08 4:44 AM

Again welcome Mephe.. It's good for us "theatre critics" to hear the view from Backstage .. once again...rather than just talking to ourselves in the balcony seats...

BTW if you read my post about the actual content of private shows, you will find the link to the note on health risks from "gonzo performances" that I was looking for earlier today.
Ciao
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#8 [url]

Dec 19 08 9:00 AM

Reply to Bittersweet (I have included relevant excerpts from Bittersweet's post; my replies appear in bold)
_________________________________________________

It is apparent Mephe that you are on the side of the models. It is the same discussion over and over again.

By pointing out that I am "on the side of the models" you have structured this debate as a bipolar one: you're either with us or with them. I don't think this is a constructive thing to do. Don't forget that models and clients share many of the same interests.

What is it to be a friend? I can bring up tons of comparisons between real life and the work these women are employed in and how the definitions of friendship interact and relate.

There are many types of friendships as have been discovered and discussed on this forum. I fail to accept or acknowledge that there is some price paid for being a friend towards anyone, anywhere.In reality, the price paid goes beyond the physical cash anyone needs or receives.

If that was the case I might as well buy all the friends I want with money, and I am positive that in the final result that they are merely superficial with no depth or meaning to them at all.

Now pertaining to this work, it is up to and is under the control of the individual model who stays and goes in her free chat. And they have very little say in who should or should not go private either.They do however have a choice in how far they might deliver their next performance.
They can not control a paying customer or else she will get penalized or reprimanded,unless she is an independent model, because it is a business first and foremost. To deny a private regardless of the content is not practical or business saavy for all involved in this work(model,studio,admin,translators,website owners etc).

Yes, true a model can decide if she wants friendship away from her work too. And never should they cross, because you and I, and everyone here understands what it is all about,right? The work, a fantasy, a place where you can be in control, or be submissive.To fulfill some dream or just to earn a paycheck.But that is not always the case as well,when it comes to this fantasy either. Some may want things that normally they would not be able to receive from their significant other,or that is taboo by society or what is considered out of the norm these days. A customer, wants what they pay for, whether it is to be a friend,to have a wank, to be a lover, or some perverse show.Whatever is missing in their lives.

What you also seem to mix together is how the contact away from their work is an offshoot of their work. In most cases that may be only one of the reasons why people connect away from the sites. But I can most assuredly say that it is not true entirely with some, and I am being quite subtle in what may be really occurring.

Am I mixing it together? Or are you grouping all models into some scheming, homogeneous lump? I have worked as a model and I have made many real friends. I doubt I am alone in this. You also acknowledge this possibility.

I'm sure lots of models do use their time off the site to connect with guys with the aim of getting money out of them. To me, this is an issue of communication. You should know what your relationship with your model is. Be careful. Don't be a sucker. It's not hard to understand what motivates most models, unless you are dead-set on fooling yourself about it. And if this is what you do, please consider that this might be more your problem (or the industry's as a whole) than it is your model's.

At any rate, I don't think that the potential for the conflation of friendship and business by some is a reason to piss off models who ARE your friends by freeloading off their work.

In most cases that may be only one of the reasons why people connect away from the sites. But I can most assuredly say that it is not true entirely with some, and I am being quite subtle in what may be really occurring. If we were friends before you decided to work as a cam hostess, and I came to see you at work would that require me to have a show or pay to see or talk to you?Should I be obligated to buy a drink from my friend the bartender?Or purchase a suit from my friend the sales clerk when seeing them at their place of employment too?But hey I presume most people seek friends by paying them to be one.Nah.


Really? Your friends who work in restaurants must hate you.

If you like a sales clerk so much that you want to hang out there for hours just chatting, then yeah, you should probably buy a suit now and then. Otherwise you'll get a restraining order filed against you.

Why?

Because you don't hang out where someone works and get in their way unless you are a.) really, really sure that they don't mind at all or b.) you are compensating them in some way – even symbolically – for their time.

To me, this is a matter of etiquette and common sense. And there is no reason why it should not extend to the context of a webcam chat room. Yes, there can be exceptions. Maybe there are webcam girls out there who are just dying to do nothing but talk to their friends while they work, and they wouldn't want any compensation from them. But this just seems like bad business to me.

You can look at is as a question of “What do you want, dude?”

If it's friendship, great! If you want to watch me work and tease in my underwear, or if you're "into my personality," or whatever I am doing while I am working, then pay up.

And if you think that I want you to hang out with me, and that I want nothing from you but your sparkling conversation, then you better make sure that this is exactly how I feel, otherwise I will resent you.


In my book, hanging out in my room and taking up my time without ever tipping me will take you out of the running for Real Friend status (read: someone I choose to interact with outside of business, because I want to) a lot faster than if you do tip me. When I ran a pizza place and my friends would come in to eat, did they tip me? Hell yeah, they did. It's an important symbolic gesture in any situation where you are benefiting when someone else's work.

Would I have ever demanded a tip from these friends? No way. Would I have been miffed had they not tipped me? Probably, yeah. Again, it's an issue of respect.

Back to my other service job at the pizza place. My friend who worked in the ice cream shop up the street used to come in all the time while I was working. He would hang out and talk, get some pizza, tip me. Then after work I'd go get ice cream. Hang out, talk, tip him. Probably we just traded coins. You see? It's not necessarily all about the money (although, depending how much of your model's time you are taking up, money is probably a big part of it).

I recognize that once money has been exchanged the power differential shifts and the model is now burdened with providing a service, but I think that only applies if you are not clear about the intentions behind your gift/tip/whatever. In those situations where my friends have tipped me -- in various service positions on cam and off -- I have certainly not felt that money polluted our friendship.

Again, communication. Like I said, much of it is the principle of the matter. If you don't want to pay money, fine. At least communicate openly with your model friends to make sure that they know you don't plan on paying anything ever.


In the context of the chatroom, the model is providing you with services whether you are paying or not.

If you don't think that a chatroom is a good place for real friendship (and I believe that this is largely, but not exclusively, the case), then leave the room or become a paying customer. Otherwise you're just some stingy creep.

As a certain Miss Jackson once famously vocalized: What Have You Done for Me Lately?

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#9 [url]

Dec 19 08 12:50 PM



Some boys kiss me, some boys hug me
I think they're O.K.
If they don't give me proper credit
I just walk away

They can beg and they can plead
But they can't see the light, that's right
'Cause the boy with the cold hard cash
Is always Mister Right, 'cause we are

Living in a material world
And I am a material girl
You know that we are living in a material world
And I am a material girl

Some boys romance, some boys slow dance
That's all right with me
If they can't raise my interest then I
Have to let them be

Some boys try and some boys lie but
I don't let them play
Only boys who save their pennies
Make my rainy day, 'cause they are

Living in a material world (material)
Living in a material world

Boys may come and boys may go
And that's all right you see
Experience has made me rich
And now they're after me, 'cause everybody's

A material, a material, a material, a material world

Living in a material world (material)
Living in a material world

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#11 [url]

Dec 20 08 7:44 AM

Maybe we should even pass a little credit to Madona for making the song so popular. I'm sure she didn't come up with the ideas herself.

Well, aren't I a "theatre critic" as UL so politely pointed out!

Welcome Mephe and thank you for noticing that BetterSweet {sp?} can be a little bi-polar at times.

I happen to agree that it's best to stay out of the kitchen if you're not going to help make the soup or, at least, with the dishes and cleanup.

Hey, a tip is a token of appreciation offered to deserving and often friendly people. Anything that is worth doing is also worth doing for money when possible. Most of us feel bad when we do good things without any sign of appreciation.

Be kind, for [nearly] everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. -- Philo
Curiosity Didn't Kill This Cat. -- Studs Terkel
Simply paying attention allows us to build an emotional connection. Lacking attention, empathy hasn't a chance. --Daniel Goleman

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#12 [url]

Dec 20 08 2:53 PM

Excuse me if someone realized some meals are something they don't find appealing or tasteful anymore. Right Old Imp.

Maybe there are other ways to show appreciation. Like capping a private show for all posterity. Or maybe feeding a system Mephe is trying to avoid,that suffocates and siphons off a members fantasy dollars.

Or all those foolish members and "suckers" that have fallen prey to their own slices of pizza.

Maybe Madonna was a former cam model. Or maybe she was a big tipper on certain websites.

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

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#13 [url]

Dec 20 08 4:45 PM

Mephe, and just interested parties.

The mere fact that any of us are debating anything, is in itself constructive. In saying that, we should not forget that models and CLIENTS have the same interests, indicates money is exchanged in this industry. Keyword:clients. It is a given and a fact. Now if you wrote models and FRIENDS then we could add a twist to it.

The original poster of this topic, was trying to find a correlation and answers between friendship, love and this work and privates .And what it all means to all of us in reality.

I am not mixing them together as much as those CLIENTS or MODELS do on all the sites. I am not grouping people into one homogenous category, as you believe, but in essence trying to separate the facts for what they are.

If I have to be considered a REAL FRIEND just so I can hang out on a chat site designed solely for the purpose of making money and shaking your goodies. Then the same should hold true for other jobs. I do not go to my REAL friends place of work and pay my REAL friend, the barber, the waitress or the executive because they are my REAL friends, just to chew the fat. But I do go to their work to obtain a SERVICE, or a meal and I do pay for it. As you so succinctly point out, it is a business not a social gathering. Oops, or is it?

Would I pay my REAL FRIEND, or expect them to pay me, to hang out with me away from our jobs either, do you? Or at my job as well.
Of course models do use their off time to solidify their monetary gains, is no secret. What I was referring to, was those that say they have no interest in any financial windfall but do, in a deceptive manner, away from their work. And I do absolutely agree with the being a sucker and the motivations of unsavory people.

And why is the fault placed solely on the member for becoming a sucker and not the models as well? Can a model act or seem as if they are true and then exploit others? That can also hold true for a visitor to those websites too. Logically, then you have a few possible scenarios, but not limited to:

1)your meetings away from their job is for an agreed upon mutual exchange of monetary transactions or gifts.
2)Or there is some genuine real attraction or mutual cyber friendship, which is done out of real honest and caring emotions and understanding. And not for financial gain.
3)Or both are kidding each other and there are other motivational factors behind it and both are not being honest or real.

Why is it the member who is always the person ending up as a sucker? That would mean that there is some type of deceptive practice employed beyond the surreal, tantalizing, and scintillating life changing chat that occurs in your rooms. Be professional, on both sides, sorry thats not what the rule book says to do. Is it? Do I or anyone else need to change the meaning of things to justify your reason for working in this industry?

Now as to the conflation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflation, it will in reality, eventually piss someone off without both parties explaining and communicating with utmost honesty and sincerity.

You also appear to be incorrectly grouping or associating me or others into a category as freeloaders. And that I spend my time being a creep and an annoyance at my friends place of employment. That is the distinct difference between your work and almost every other job on this planet. There is no legitimate comparison between your work to any other work, other than perhaps in the profession as an escort. Or as Uncle Lewis has posted regarding the GFE thread.(Girl Friend Experience).

Now there are women employed in your industry that do ask their friends, if you want to call them that, to come and visit their chat, because it simply makes them happy or comfortable to have them around. But I reiterate, to not become a "creep" as you call it, and I can speak for myself, I would feel very uncomfortable and guilty if I acted as you think I do. So hence, I have paid for my time as a friend if you wish to call it that.

Perhaps it was also:
a) communicated that it was ok to hang out in their chat without going for a private or to tip them. and
b) exactly as you said, it being a symbolic gesture of true friendship and not a business exchange.

But I am sorry my manners and etiquette and respect, does not conform to a fantasized version of yours. I humbly ask you to contact Merriams and Websters scholars to redefine some words to a more precise and definitive description as it pertains to the world of camming.

But as we can also point out, that you believe that REAL friendship comes with a price when it comes to the BUSINESS of cam models and its members.
What I am clearly pointing out to many people that visit these sites and read this forum is:

1)It is a place to make money, never be there without compensating that model for her time otherwise you are wasting her time. Do the right thing. YES?
2)That if anyone visits these sites they should not expect to have some sort of love affair or long distance relationship. Unless . Maybe the model likes you, or says, your NOT a CLIENT to them. Hard to distinguish the difference sometimes by the way some members pay to hang out, hmmm. Or how some new members have spoken up here on this forum looking for answers.
3)Perhaps, the resentment may work both ways, when you realize that it is not a REAL friendship. But then I seem to again need to pay to stay there and not waste anyones time. Correct?
4)Yes, it is bad business anywhere, in any job, if a FRIEND takes advantage at a persons place of employment. Hence, I said, never should they be mixed at a place of business,
5)The next question arises: What do you want, model? The answer is to make money there. Just like the barber, the waitress, and the salesperson. Who may or may not be a friend.

What I am saying is this job uses friendship and love as a key marketing tool for success. As we can see by some of the recently joined male members of this forum. I might add even the pirates agree that a model is there to perform or show the goods. But it is such a fine line that is crossed when I read a male member falling in love with a model. You do not fall in love with the persons work but with the person they are or seem to portray.

By the way, I do believe your friends visited you at your pizza job because they actually were hungry and wanted a slice of pizza and did pay you and tip you. Otherwise they might have just pulled a gun out and stolen the slice and the money in the cash register. Please do not stereotype me into a group, that never COMPENSATED a model for her time and friendship as explained by your definition of it. You do not know me that well. And if I can be called a creep, or anyone else for that matter, then I could just as easily call a model a creep for making a person pay for her love or friendship. Or has that definition, been changed because of the industry you work in?
You stated that it is respectful for me to pay you and tip you whether it was in a pizza place or on a porn site. I think your confusing things. I agree, and I will pay for services rendered, whether it is, a haircut, a slice of pizza, from a waitress, or a cam models time. It is business simply business. There is a difference between friendship and a business relationship. But I must re-read the definition of friendship again and make sure it includes payment for services rendered in the definitive definition. And then I am to presume that real love has a monetary value too. Damn I must be old fashioned or a creep. Or I live in a fantasy world. Or maybe it is reversed?

Communication is important. But is that communication genuine? Is a porn site chatroom the same as a yahoo chatroom? Should I pay my friend whom I knew for 35 years, who moved to China, and I in the USA, to chat on yahoo because it is a real friendship? Then I should pay the members too that are my friends on these porn sites too. Or vise versa. Lets put a price on everything, shall we.

What is truly astonishing, is that it is the golden rule and the law of the land, to be considered a friend on a porn site by paying and tipping. Or having 100 male members pay to fall in love also. Or not to pay? Hmmm Everytime I see a member mention they are in love and care for a model, I wonder, which one of them(model or member) crossed that professional business boundary some models try to enforce so diligently. Or not so diligently. But once again it has been said that this is a job. I am being realistic here, and stating the facts. So realistically, the member that found love,just like the other 20 guys in a models chat are all her true loves. And they all vie for it, by paying for it. Yet could there be an equal response by that model too that makes the member believe it is real? I dunno I heard love is blind, maybe foolish too.

If I was stingy, I would be a begger and a freeloader wouldnt I? Then I really would be a creep. But then again, What have you done for me lately as a REAL friend?



In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

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#14 [url]

Dec 20 08 4:53 PM

So, if I hang out in a free "text only chat" while she's at work, talking when she's able to, does that make me a freeloader or someone who genuinely cares about the lady he's hanging out with?

Also, if I occasionally take her (and only her I might add) private so we can actually talk and not type, does that mean I'm feeding the system?

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#15 [url]

Dec 20 08 4:59 PM

Who are you asking Mike? The models or members of chat sites? You will get a different answer from different people.

Here is some friendly advice. You can read what some write here, you can also know and hear or read what your model friend says to you. You make your own decisions and choices.

Just think and disseminate what people have written here to make an educated decision. I just hope this isn't all bullshit fodder.

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

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#16 [url]

Dec 20 08 5:08 PM

Just a general question, Bittersweet. SHE told me about the text chat on one of the sites she's on. We also have an understanding that I don't talk to her there or via messenger when she tells me she's in private (unless she says something first or if I need to log out for any reason).

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#17 [url]

Dec 21 08 12:14 AM

Look Mike, I am not going to advise you on what you should or should not do. Each relationship is different in ways.

If you read what some models have written here that pertains to their jobs, i.e. Tiffany,Mephe, and a few others. They may be working as independent models which gives them leeway and more freedom to do or act as they please in their chat rooms.

Compared to studio models there is a tighter reign so to speak on what is allowed, and take into account that your actions could get her penalties also, or into trouble.

What I write here on this forum are taken from experience. I also want to point out that not everyone falls into the same category.

You only need to read posts from other people and stuff from other forums to gather information and a general sense what does, what can, and what this cyberworld is all about, and how things may or may not be as they appear.

If you really love or care for each other, stay away from her chat. If you really truly care for each other then you both will want to speak or contact each other on your own personal time and not via her work time,as Mephe states.

I can only say to you or any member that there are too many ways to keep secrets and play games via the internet. The only real way to know someone and who they really are is with real personal face to face contact. And as you might have read elsewhere, that can even be fake.

I also want to add that not everyone is out to screw each other or fool each other. I just want people to understand and realize and think before leaping.



In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

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#18 [url]

Dec 21 08 1:11 AM

Bittersweet, I am not asking for advise. I trust that I would be told if I am interfering or being a distraction. I prefer contact away from work... getting her to make the time is another issue on which I won't elaborate here.

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#19 [url]

Dec 21 08 2:36 AM

Bittersweet I must say I enjoy your candor, your "reality" ahhh the reality. Every individual has a different perception. As this forum has proven often. Perhaps we should all explore the words that are used so often and what the true context is. REALITY!! Just what is it? Should we choose to ignore it, or embrace it with open minds to allow us to grow and prosper.
REALITY is it a curse or blessing? Depends, how one looks at it and defines it. Usually dependent on their own reality and circumstances.
Are we facing it or running from it, hiding from it? The reality is, that reality will always be waiting for each and everyone on both sides of the screen. When reality kicks in our only hope is that all will survive and find support to enjoy the their reality.
Bittersweet you speak of reality, many like to hide from it. Keep up the open honest thoughts as more need to hear it. Their realities are not on-line but just outside the door. Let's step out and take a honest look at it. What does it offer you and what can one do for it. Reality will come a knocking people, hopefully all are in a position to accept it and move on.Productively.
Perhaps we should start a REALITY THREAD what is it and how does one percieve it?
No doubt we would have many different perceptions.

REALITY

Main Entry:
reality Listen to the pronunciation of reality
Pronunciation:
\rē-ˈa-lə-tē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural realities
Date:
1550

1: the quality or state of being real2 a (1): a real event, entity, or state of affairs (2): the totality of real things and events b: something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily3: television programming that features videos of actual occurrences (as a police chase, stunt, or natural disaster) often used attributively
in reality
: in actual fact


FRIEND
Main Entry:
1friend Listen to the pronunciation of 1friend
Pronunciation:
\ˈfrend\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English frend, from Old English frēond; akin to Old High German friunt friend, Old English frēon to love, frēo free
Date:
before 12th century

1 a: one attached to another by affection or esteem b: acquaintance2 a: one that is not hostile b: one that is of the same nation, party, or group3: one that favors or promotes something (as a charity)4: a favored companion5capitalized : a member of a Christian sect that stresses Inner Light, rejects sacraments and an ordained ministry, and opposes war called also Quaker

REAL
Main Entry:
1real Listen to the pronunciation of 1real
Pronunciation:
\ˈrē(-ə)l\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, real, relating to things (in law), from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin & Late Latin; Medieval Latin realis relating to things (in law), from Late Latin, real, from Latin res thing, fact; akin to Sanskrit rayi property
Date:
14th century

1: of or relating to fixed, permanent, or immovable things (as lands or tenements)2 a: not artificial, fraudulent, or illusory : genuine ; also : being precisely what the name implies b (1): occurring or existing in actuality (2): of or relating to practical or everyday concerns or activities (3): existing as a physical entity and having properties that deviate from an ideal, law, or standard compare ideal 3b c: having objective independent existence d: fundamental , essential e (1): belonging to or having elements or components that belong to the set of real numbers (2): concerned with or containing real numbers (3): real-valued f: measured by purchasing power g: complete , utter 3of a particle : capable of being detected compare v[B]


GUEST/ MEMBER

Main Entry:
1guest Listen to the pronunciation of 1guest
Pronunciation:
\ˈgest\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English gest, from Old Norse gestr; akin to Old English giest guest, stranger, Latin hostis stranger, enemy
Date:
13th century

1 a: a person entertained in one's house b: a person to whom hospitality is extended c: a person who pays for the services of an establishment (as a hotel or restaurant)2: an organism (as an insect) sharing the dwelling of another ; especially : inquiline3: a substance that is incorporated in a host substance4: a usually prominent person not a regular member of a cast or organization who appears in a program or performance

HOST

Main Entry:
3host
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English hoste host, guest, from Anglo-French, from Latin hospit-, hospes, probably from hostis
Date:
14th century

1 a: one that receives or entertains guests socially, commercially, or officially b: one that provides facilities for an event or function 2 a: a living animal or plant on or in which a parasite lives b: the larger, stronger, or dominant member of a commensal or symbiotic pair c: an individual into which a tissue, part, or embryo is transplanted from another3: a mineral or rock that is older than the minerals or rocks in it ; also : a substance that contains a usually small amount of another substance incorporated in its structure4: a radio or television emcee5: a computer that controls communications in a network or that administers a database ; also : server 6

PORNOGRAPHIC

Main Entry:
pornography Listen to the pronunciation of pornography
Pronunciation:
\-fē\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Greek pornographos, adjective, writing about prostitutes, from pornē prostitute + graphein to write; akin to Greek pernanai to sell, poros journey more at fare, carve
Date:
1858

1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement 2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement 3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction

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#20 [url]

Dec 21 08 3:12 AM

Tben, I too enjoy your candor and choice of and use of words.

Like one president said "I did not have sexual relations with that woman". Reality. Fantasy.

Can reality be replaced with fantasy where one becomes the other?

In reality I fantasize about licking her pussy and making her cum. In reality my fantasy has become a reality in reality. Geez, what is the fantasy then?

I met her in reality to only find out that it was not real. A fantasy?

Maybe we should start a fantasy thread to parallel the reality thread. Equal time for both.

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

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