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Aug 20 08 6:10 PM

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I have reached the intersection of futility and resignation.

For those who read this and english is not your first language -- "Futility" is where nothing you do matters or has any effect. "Resignation" means, you give up.

I reached this place because I dared....once more....to care about what happens to a girl who decided being a model was an OK way to make quick money. A girl who knew the work was not for her. Who knew it made her very uncomfortable.

But she was also a person who did not believe my advice that soon...and faster than she could imagine...the work would change her, change how she felt about it, change what she was willing to do. Like every girl before her, she insisted she was different.

She wasn't.

I don't know why I cared so much. I'm not in love with her or anything crazy. I really had no intent to get involved in anyone's life. But I was immediately touched by body language and her eyes, which said "I don't belong here. Please, somebody help me understand that." And a short conversation confirmed that. And I was touched by her sincerity. I offered advice, and to be a friend. She offered assurances that I could believe in her when she said she would hold true to her principles.

She didn't.
As I knew would happen, as much as my heart hoped differently.

It made me realize that three dynamics drive this porn cam industry. And make no mistake...call yourself a model if you want, but there is no modeling involved. It is a porn industry, and this is the selling of porn shows.

The first, and most important dynamic is GREED.
Greed by the people who make these sites, who push girls into more and more drastic shows, who write contracts that hook them into long term commitments and then bully them into escalating behavior.

But also greed on the part of the models. No matter why the reason girls take these jobs (the reason for needing the money, and most are good reasons).....
....once girls who have "standards" realize how much money they can get by lowering those standards....the slope is quite slippery.

This brings in the second dynamic: GRADUALISM.
A girl who thinks, "OK, this once I will do this thing for this member" -- she believes it was an exception to her standard. But the truth is, it becomes her. There is an old saying: "Whatever you accept becomes your standard." So then she thinks, "Hmm, I lived through it. I even forgot how bad I felt. Ok, I will do it again for this member".....and so on and so on. Next thing you know, the girl who insisted on her standards is buying a dildo and agreeing to anal....because it gets her more members in pvt....which takes us back to greed.

The owners of the sites and the studios know these first two dynamics (the greed and the gradualism). And they know the models don't know it (at least in the beginning, but often, never), and they count on that.

And they count on the third dynamic: THE NAIVETE OF YOUTH.
I know that to most who read this, I am an old man. But like older people behave much in the same way, so do younger people...those 18-25. And that way is:
* They think mostly for NOW, and don't consider how it affects the future.
* They believe what they are told, and don't ask questions about what they are NOT told.
* They believe their situation is unique...and what happens to others will not happen to them.
* Most important, because they want to be their own person, THEY DON'T LIKE TO BE GIVEN ADVICE....especially from those of us older ;-)

The owners know this too...and they depend on it. They can tell girls whatever, just to get the girls started in the job. And then they just wait for the greed and gradualism to do its work. For the girl to get so dependent on the money.

So girls who take a job for just a few months (girls just like the one at the beginning of this post) find themselves still doing it 2..3...or more years later.

Never mind that this work is filled with liars and creates liars...on both sides...which makes everyone change their attitudes about people....and often make the girls (and members too) become bitter, hateful, numb feeling people. That is a whole other story, and one spoken of often on this forum.

So where does that leave me?

As of a result of this girl I mentioned....profoundly sad. And...at that intersection.

I have a few close friends as a result of this business, earlier times. I like to believe they eventually quit because of me. But my day has come and gone. I am not a "rescuer". And I am sure not Don Quixote.

This business sucks. It destroys people and they don't even feel or see it happening. People on both sides of the camera.

But everything you need to know is already posted on this forum. If you are a model, or thinking of becoming one...please, try to overcome the third dynamic and read all the info on the forum. Make an informed choice...hopefully one that thinks past today.

As for me, I'm walking away from it all. I wish you all luck. I will still pray for you...and for the girl who inspired this decision. But emotionally, I am done.
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#1 [url]

Aug 20 08 10:52 PM

Dean,

I know how you feel as someone who has been in the same situation.

I suggest to all those that read this thread or others posts here, heed the advice and read with an open mind.

I learned that you cannot exact any change on anyone unless they themselves want it. Do you think they care what you or I think?

I feel sorry not for you but for the women. I feel sorry for the women that live and endure the daily struggle to survive in any place that forces or that thinks they need to accept a job in this industry. We did not force them to accept this job, and they all are adult enough to make their own decisions.

The greed for more I may cover in a topic I have been preparing. But this work, changes a person that does it, and changes those that get caught up on the other side of the cam too.
Complacency,hopelessness,low self esteem, greed, among some factors and increasingly the emotional factors play a large role into why people work and play in this industry. On the other side of the cam, lonliness, lust, friendship, the need for acceptance,take hold on the other partner in this industry. Perversion,control,fetish,nymphomania,and egotism are other cards that come into play as well.

It is a poor excuse or poor reason why anyone that complains about working in this industry would say "because they have no other means or a way to survive." Most of the time they are not only lieing to themselves but to the poor assholes that are used by these people to line their own pockets. And I not only refer to the models, but in many ways, the management and owners of these businesses.

To any member of a porn site that has visited or gotten close to a model, ask yourselves this. If you didn't support these women, by going private, or sending them gifts, or sending them money because they say they are in dire need of it. Would this industry exist? Do you think you are not part of this problem? Or that you are part of their solution or the solution in general? You are merely enforcing and telling them by your examples and actions, that it is ok to work there.And you are fooling yourselves just as much as these women fool themselves and you too.

Fuck that, I will post stats on available jobs in some eastern european countries and then ask yourselves again: Do they want to work a normal job? Or just want to think that what seems a fast and quick way to make easy money while fucking themselves into a deeper shithole on top of the place they call a shithole of a home.

Everyone here is a victim and a predator.I say re-read, again and again, the rules and handbooks by which these businesses instruct the women to follow and you will see the light.

In the game of seduction, there is one rule, never fall in love.

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#2 [url]

Aug 20 08 11:08 PM


Dean and Bittersweet,, well said...and thank you both for sticking with it for so long.
Ofc, there are models who will be deeply offended by what you have said..
Because like any good "sales person" who's accepts their job as their identity,
they have come to believe in the "customer based service" they are selling...

You will be missed Dean....and thanks for all your efforts.
So a Hearty "Hat Off" to Dean from the Old MadHatter.

OFC, the forum will continue...so that models can come and "vent..."
and their customers who need to "learn the real deal..."
can come and do our "Camming 101" intro course..

The forum is necessary because as P.T. Barnum once said,
"There's a sucker born every minute..."
and that remains true on whatever side of screen you're sitting on...
UL

"I would no more be a Master than a slave. It does not conform to my idea of Democracy." Abraham Lincoln 1856.

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#3 [url]

Oct 27 10 6:20 PM

well apparently dean is long gone from this site....but his words struck a chord with me

perhaps because i'm not the kind of person that settles for the surface of anything.....or perhaps, in living, i found that unless you let an experience deep inside, it serves no lasting purpose.

anyway....since i found this site a few days ago, i've been reading....and while i don't have dean's experience of "personal friendship" with models, i find myself drawn to the newest, the most sincere, the "girl next door" -to those catagories identified here as the growing "niche" coming out of eastern europe.

i have found and struck up conversations with young woman in those catagories, from the truely innocent to the overtly provocative, and to a girl -regardless of their style- i have witnessed the shadow move across their face when they consider "ok, i can do this for one guy....it won't change me"

similarly, i have found that they all -regardless of their style- have within them what must be generalized as a "longing".....predominately economic, but always -it seems to me- to be tinged with an emotional need for acceptance.

an acceptance which some here have linked to overcoming shame: while there is some truth to that observation, i'm not convinced it adequately describes what i'm talking about.....because that shadow is not the result of coercion from our side of the screen (models seem generally very smart about their limits when it comes to male coercion and manipulation)....it is instead the result of a/ getting lost in a truely fun series of moments, where acceptance comes as a combination of tips and chatting, forming a "bond" that makes the room more intimate.....that shadow in a model's eye is a stark reminder of the illusion -whether the model be provocative or innocent

the more i see this, the less i feel like particpating: it is the ghost in the machine, whose presence is rarely seen i believe....but once it reveals itself, it can no longer be denied.

and i want to be clear here that my perceptions are not a reflection on anyone here: i admire and respect the models who have spoken up: your honesty, in fact, has helped me to understand the role i play in the industry......if there is any shame here, it's mine....lol

because i will continue to play it while longer, until the experience has played out within me.

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#4 [url]

Oct 27 10 6:53 PM

Well put.. iltos because it is our "market demand" that feeds the machine - while most of us risk relatively little - a maxed out credit card perhaps? Sometimes a fantasy love that goes sour when the spell is broken?

But what do these young women risk- nothing less - in the words of one clever, American web-pimps than "ruining their reputations to get an education..." And lots more when their videos inevitably re-surface in their home communities months or years after they have left this industry and closed the door on their "second life" online...

So yes Iltos, the shame is indeed on us - but even more so on the global network of web-pimps who have made this kind of sexual commerce not only possible but also so damn profitable.
EB
BTW Dean was still here last week, when he resigned one more time.

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#5 [url]

Oct 27 10 7:57 PM

kuleshov effect

I was in my fav's room recently and another performer was there as well. As this other performer and I chatted on yahoo messenger, I commented how sad my fav looked (i was a guest); the other performer said she simply looked bored...

Obviously, I wanted the girl to look sad, after all I was not in her room.

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#6 [url]

Oct 27 10 9:11 PM

LOOOOOL

Isn't it a bit sadistic to want another to be sad? No comment to that, charming online prince for all the cam girls who are crying when you don't visit them

I have news for you.. I'm actually happy you didn't come in mine

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#7 [url]

Oct 27 10 9:26 PM

I think in all fairness Markfx would agree with you, camgirl..
Unless I have become completely tone deaf, he was speaking in an ironic voice...
making fun of himself and all the other online prince charmings...
EB

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#8 [url]

Oct 27 10 9:34 PM

I would never want nor wish another to be sad. But I think it is human to think that others who care about you long (desire) for you to be with them. And I know when I am not able to be with places and people I like, I am not entirely happy.

Mostly my post was about perception, not about hurting feelings.

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#9 [url]

Oct 27 10 9:43 PM

yeah.. I know, depressed people want others to be depressed too, and consider it a prove of love.
The feelings for a model would be incapable of work because she miss somebody would make her a loser for a period, in my opinion. And there are many members she can enjoy to talk, but they come and go, what would u like her to do int hat case? Suicide? U surely confuse a fun work with personal relationships. I really hope no model to do that, cause in the end of the month she wont pay her bills, or in the end of the year she will be sad for real and for objective reasons for the time she wasted!

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#10 [url]

Oct 27 10 9:52 PM

Well, Camgirl, I do not think you were a fly in their chat room nor wherever they chatted about things.



Umm..... empathy........ sympathy.........

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#11 [url]

Oct 27 10 10:35 PM

I do not equate sadness with depression. I did not say i depressed either.

Perhaps the girl would feel sadness in that I was not in her room to tip her and pvt her.

I don't pretend to know everything about the wherefore and the why of this business.

I can only offer my experience.

And my personal experience is that I have had feelings for a number of performers. If and why they reciprocated those feelings is their business. But I do know that girls that seemed to care about me got more money out of me. I accept that part of the business, too.

After all, a typical question in free is, 'miss me'? I hear that from both performers and members...

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#12 [url]

Oct 27 10 11:53 PM


yes, ure, right, everybody understand its own feeling in the same word, or the same world can mean a different thing if it's said to another person

You cannot be part of the crowd and achieve your dream at the same time.

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#13 [url]

Oct 27 10 11:54 PM

Markfx....

Can I give you some friendly advice please, and this holds true for all new male members here?

Go back a few years throughout this forum and read some older pinned posts and other posts.

Take your time. Then make your decisions about this all.


I miss you, camgirl.... wub.gif

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#15 [url]

Oct 28 10 12:23 AM

There are no fights here, just disagreements.

Or differences in views, opinions etc etc....

Eventually we agree to disagree or agree to agree.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil...is for good men to do nothing
Edmund Burke(1729-1797)
Irish Philosopher,statesman


�With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.�

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. � Albert Einstein.

"To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle."
Confucius

STAY THE F..K OUT OF CAMLAND...YOU ARE ALL FODDER

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#16 [url]

Oct 28 10 4:56 AM

QUOTE (TRAINER @ October 27, 2010 11:54 pm)

Can I give you some friendly advice please, and this holds true for all new male members here?

Go back a few years throughout this forum and read some older pinned posts and other posts.

Take your time. Then make your decisions about this all.


sound advice, imo
there really is nothing objective about any of this: it's all a function of individual human need

in the long run, all the reality of "what's going on" in the industry boils away, and you are left with human beings interacting.

where you stand on that spectrum can only be the result of who you are....and what your need is

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#17 [url]

Apr 18 12 3:23 PM

Dean, 3 1/2 years later, I am a newbie on this site, and your OP brought me to tears..

The plight is on both sides of the camera. Maybe by these young girls forever changing their standards and their futures - for all the reasons you stated - they are also changing a few of us in a positive way.

The Studio and cam site owners are getting the bulk of the money, and in places like the Ukraine the corrupt police. They feed their greed while they stay hidden while the girls give away their futures on the cams. The girls get maybe 10-15% of the money by the time the money is divided up.

And us perverts feed our own selfish needs too. It really is our fault. We have a need and they fill it.

I know exactly how you felt when you wrote the post.

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